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Old July 18th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #5061
robertwood
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By the comments that have come from my original comment about Hitler I can see that this forum has a lot of thoughtful and intellectual people on it and I am proud to know all of you in this forum. But shh..shh...I think I hear a moderator coming!
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Old July 18th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #5062
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Interesting how a bunch of american rightists come around and call Hitler a leftwinger. Something seems to have gone terribly wrong here...
Please let us focus on the reconstruction of Dresden.

*OK, it's too hard not to contribute to ´political discussions´: I'm very ashamed of the whole AfD/PEGIDA-Bullsh** coming from Dresden. But that's the Easterners, always going for the extremes, either right or left.
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Old July 18th, 2015, 10:12 PM   #5063
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When someone is so extreme, it becomes difficult to distinguish whether they're right or left. As someone has already mentioned, think of politics on a circular spectrum, instead of a linear one. Nazism is right at the point where the two ends meet.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #5064
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When someone is so extreme, it becomes difficult to distinguish whether they're right or left. As someone has already mentioned, think of politics on a circular spectrum, instead of a linear one. Nazism is right at the point where the two ends meet.
Well, I see it as a polydimensional `spectrum´. There's as little state as possible vs as much state as possible and there is liberal* vs conservative, free market vs planned economy and anthropocentric vs ecological,... Just having a big state doesn't make a country socialist.
National Socialism was definitely not socialist, for Socialism wants the best for everybody, whereas National Socialism wanted the best for all aryan germans. (The best in their sense, of course, not mine)

*liberal in the sense of freedom-loving. When people bash ´the liberals´ because of a supposed lack of ´freedom-ness´, I tend to cringe internally as liberalism is all about freedom, just everybody has a different understanding of liberty.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #5065
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MODERATOR, PLEASE, WHERE ARE YOU??????????

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Old July 19th, 2015, 05:04 PM   #5066
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National Socialism was definitely not socialist, for Socialism wants the best for everybody,
.
It sure was. And socialism wants the same for everyone, not the best (except of course the crony elites). In socialism, the best is unaffordable and socialists do not consider the best to be necessary.

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*liberal in the sense of freedom-loving. When people bash ´the liberals´ because of a supposed lack of ´freedom-ness´, I tend to cringe internally as liberalism is all about freedom, just everybody has a different understanding of liberty.
The only things conservatives tend to be controlling of are the 'naughty' things centered around sex and drugs. Liberals, on the other hand, want to control everything else--speech, thought, earning power, child rearing, school curricula, etc, which I find to be quite freedom-restricting. A bit oversimplified, but in the USA if self-defined liberals were able to be more tolerant of choices other than their own, a nice compromise on many issues could be the result.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 05:39 PM   #5067
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There's nothing wrong with a bit of intellectual debate.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 05:44 PM   #5068
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It sure was. And socialism wants the same for everyone, not the best (except of course the crony elites). In socialism, the best is unaffordable and socialists do not consider the best to be necessary.



The only things conservatives tend to be controlling of are the 'naughty' things centered around sex and drugs. Liberals, on the other hand, want to control everything else--speech, thought, earning power, child rearing, school curricula, etc, which I find to be quite freedom-restricting. A bit oversimplified, but in the USA if self-defined liberals were able to be more tolerant of choices other than their own, a nice compromise on many issues could be the result.
Respecting the users who have expressed dislike of the diverting use of this thread, I´ll not keep this political discussion going on general basis. However, it is interesting to see the connection of those topics to building policy.

You want to keep the (architectural) past, which seem to make you a conservativist (if that word is to be taken litterary), yet the conservatives in your country favour a laisses fair policy concerning enterprise. My guess is that your "conservational attitude" comes across as "regulationist" and leftist over there ???

In Dresden, the rebuilding of the historical city center has somewhat of an anti-communist statement and even anti-socialist statement value to it. Communism wanted to eradicate the non-communist past and might even have been more pro-active at it had they had more money. That is, by european standards, rebuilding is a very "conservative" undertaking. Since it is widely supported by the public, it is also not curbing any freedoms, it is a free market dynamism.

What counts as conservative depends on where you "come from", since it means nothing else than resisting disturbingly rapid changes (off course communism is per definition revolutionist and can thus only with extreme difficulty come to count as conservative - even when resisting change).

That said, I think it counts to liberalism even to curb regressive misuses of conservativism, like favouring non-scientific school curricula, discriminating practices on religious grounds, etc - but speech, thought, earning power, child rearing: wanting to interfering in those areas counts as non-liberal in my book - even if some favoring those things and call themselves liberals.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #5069
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Personally, I'm more interested in the present, and what can be done to make Dresden Neumarkt look as close as possible to the pre-war condition. Do any of our German contributors to this forum think we, as a group, possibly in coalition with others in Saxony, could exert influence to push for a more authentic reconstruction? I'm thinking of the Hoym Palace and how the developer might be backtracking on making the street facade close to the original. The past is done. If we could influence the near future to make Dresden a better place, it would be gratifying. Comments and criticisms are welcome.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 07:44 PM   #5070
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Originally Posted by ELH View Post
Respecting the users who have expressed dislike of the diverting use of this thread, I´ll not keep this political discussion going on general basis. However, it is interesting to see the connection of those topics to building policy.

You want to keep the (architectural) past, which seem to make you a conservativist (if that word is to be taken litterary), yet the conservatives in your country favour a laisses fair policy concerning enterprise. My guess is that your "conservational attitude" comes across as "regulationist" and leftist over there ???

In Dresden, the rebuilding of the historical city center has somewhat of an anti-communist statement and even anti-socialist statement value to it. Communism wanted to eradicate the non-communist past and might even have been more pro-active at it had they had more money. That is, by european standards, rebuilding is a very "conservative" undertaking. Since it is widely supported by the public, it is also not curbing any freedoms, it is a free market dynamism.

What counts as conservative depends on where you "come from", since it means nothing else than resisting disturbingly rapid changes (off course communism is per definition revolutionist and can thus only with extreme difficulty come to count as conservative - even when resisting change).

That said, I think it counts to liberalism even to curb regressive misuses of conservativism, like favouring non-scientific school curricula, discriminating practices on religious grounds, etc - but speech, thought, earning power, child rearing: wanting to interfering in those areas counts as non-liberal in my book - even if some favoring those things and call themselves liberals.
Enjoy your good points, but part of the issue is "labels" which are often, if not generally, non reflective of reality.

Conservatism, while largely largely supportive of laissez-faire concepts when it comes to one's pursuit of goals that do not affect anyone else's liberties, are in fact 'conservative' when it comes to protecting the environment, keeping healthy lifestyles, supporting rules and regs that maintain an orderly society, etc. and of course maintaining historic value in architecture. Conservationism (core foundational principle for the Boy Scouts by the by) is key to conservatism. So, relative to the mission to keep our global architectural keepsakes maintained/rebuilt for the long term, I think it is a conservative agenda that many liberals support.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 07:57 PM   #5071
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Well, quite frankly, you're wrong, keepthepast.
And I'd rather we live in the present and think about the future than conserve stupid ideas.
Now, please go back to Cali and stop trolling with your redneck nonsense.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 08:04 PM   #5072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gatlin View Post
Personally, I'm more interested in the present, and what can be done to make Dresden Neumarkt look as close as possible to the pre-war condition. Do any of our German contributors to this forum think we, as a group, possibly in coalition with others in Saxony, could exert influence to push for a more authentic reconstruction? I'm thinking of the Hoym Palace and how the developer might be backtracking on making the street facade close to the original. The past is done. If we could influence the near future to make Dresden a better place, it would be gratifying. Comments and criticisms are welcome.
That's exactly what many Germans are doing. There are a lot of them in several other German architecture forums who are directly involved in the progress.

Frieseneck (14.07.2015)



@bavarian urbanist sorry, but most of us enjoy his contributions here. if you don't agree with him good, everyone is entitled to his opinion.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 08:36 PM   #5073
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Quote:
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(...) In Dresden, the rebuilding of the historical city center has somewhat of an anti-communist statement and even anti-socialist statement value to it. Communism wanted to eradicate the non-communist past and might even have been more pro-active at it had they had more money. That is, by european standards, rebuilding is a very "conservative" undertaking. Since it is widely supported by the public, it is also not curbing any freedoms, it is a free market dynamism.
I agree with the bolded text and I think you have a point regarding ideology behind the Dresden reconstruction project. However, IMHO, the underlined sentence requires clarification. It is far from being pure "free market dynamism" (although the excellent free market economy was the necessary precondition for the comprehensive reconstruction). It isn't NYC-style "divide the land into sensible plots, build the road and sewage system and the municipal job's done: now let the private investor build". On the contrary: it is very comprehensive job of the Bundesrepublik, the State of Saxony and the city itself, with coordination of archeologists, historians of art and architects. Most important, this effort is financed by city of Dresden, by the state and by donors. Nothing further from the typical procedure of free market real estate investment.

IMHO it fits more to the European-continental ideology of welfare state (with active participation of the public authorities in the investments) rather than typical Anglo-Saxon idea of the gov't acting as a night watch.

Having said that, I have to admit that both of these systems were able to create nice, livable cities. Although the first one is probably better when it comes to reconstruction of the whole Altstadt
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Old July 19th, 2015, 10:18 PM   #5074
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Well, quite frankly, you're wrong, keepthepast.
And I'd rather we live in the present and think about the future than conserve stupid ideas.
Now, please go back to Cali and stop trolling with your redneck nonsense.
I'm not wrong and you are typical of the name-calling, self righteously ignorant left that fosters divisiveness and hate. Shame on you. Narrow mindedness, such as exemplified in your post, is consistent of a 1930s German attitude. Join the present and create happiness, not controversy.
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Old July 19th, 2015, 11:08 PM   #5075
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Well, quite frankly, you're wrong, keepthepast.
And I'd rather we live in the present and think about the future than conserve stupid ideas.
Now, please go back to Cali and stop trolling with your redneck nonsense.
Please, let´s keep civil!
I find KeepThePast sympathik and there are few things more redneckish here than your permanent subtitle.
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Old July 20th, 2015, 01:08 PM   #5076
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I'm too lazy to read all those posts...
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Old July 20th, 2015, 09:10 PM   #5077
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So I am the narrowminded person now? Funny!
But if striving for liberty, the law and democracy is considered narrowminded, than I'll accept that badge and wear it with pride!

Re my signature, I am just simply against the growing influence of evangelical nutjobs in politics and society.
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Old July 21st, 2015, 01:49 AM   #5078
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So I am the narrowminded person now? Funny!
Unfortunately, you did demonstrate yourself to be such. We were having a civil dialogue and sharing ideas. Not funny, though. Your ideas are welcomed, why should others' not be?

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But if striving for liberty, the law and democracy is considered narrowminded, than I'll accept that badge and wear it with pride!
Three things totalitarian states often claim to be as well. Best to add to the top of the list respect for everyone's opinion and allow them to hold such opinions without threat of reprisal and harm....that you could be proud of.


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Re my signature, I am just simply against the growing influence of evangelical nutjobs in politics and society.
Where did evangelism come from? This comment underscores the comfort with which leftists fabricate charges, speak without civility, and attack people unfairly when they have differing views.
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Old July 21st, 2015, 04:07 PM   #5079
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MODERATOR!!!
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Old July 21st, 2015, 04:57 PM   #5080
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MODERATOR!!!
I respect your call, but you know: an intellectual exchange once in a while doesn´t expulse any of the posts about architecture. Like the germans say: "es frisst kein Brot" (it doesn´t eat any bread).

The moderator should turn active in the case of improper contents or if such discussions turn so extensive it demotivates participation about the architectural topic.
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