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Old June 23rd, 2016, 12:55 AM   #5461
Strykr
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[QUOTE=robertwood;133449683]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
Politically, I am left-of-center. Culturally, I am purposefully inclusive.
Philosophically, I am a empiricist, to paint it in as broad a stroke as I can.
Regarding art, science, history, and their kin, I am open and curious.
I will readily adjust my beliefs when presented with compelling evidence.
I admit it: I'm a progressive, democratic socialist, secular humanist liberal.

But, when it comes to architecture and restoration/reconstruction, I must be a tweedy old pipe-sucking, armchair conservative.

Perhaps you will come around if you are a true "classical liberal" and not merely a leftist. Its not that big a philosophical leap to say that some tried and true things should be maintained and preserved both architecturally and politically.
Considering public money is being used to build much of this, I don't think you would find a real "conservative" who would support any of this (assuming we are talking in terms of economic policy). A classical liberal is essentially a fiscal conservative, and wouldn't support any of this either.
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Old June 26th, 2016, 12:47 AM   #5462
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Well I think that a conservative would probably want the reconstructions privately funded but I see no reason why government could not set design rules and let the market work its magic. There is, after all, a high demand for the buildings in Neumarkt. The market will respond. I would point out that the Frauenkirche was rebuilt through private donations and that the reconstruction of the Berlin Palace exterior is being done through private donations, I'm personally just not a fan of collectivism and government overreach I don't see that as " progress" I personally think we make a big mistake when we allow government to control our lives and look to it for our sustenance.
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Old June 26th, 2016, 08:18 PM   #5463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertwood View Post
Well I think that a conservative would probably want the reconstructions privately funded but I see no reason why government could not set design rules and let the market work its magic.
If the design rules will be forcing investors to invest looooots of money (and there's no other way to do proper reconstruction) with low return, the market will work its magic - simply nobody will invest

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There is, after all, a high demand for the buildings in Neumarkt.
Precisely: "high demand for the buildings". Not "high demand for the 17th century look-a-like buildings".

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I would point out that the Frauenkirche was rebuilt through private donations and that the reconstruction of the Berlin Palace exterior is being done through private donations
You missed very important word "also".

Also private donations.

Dresdner Fauenkirche was rebuild also by private donations (apart from corporate donors, municipal dotations, the Staat of Saxony and if I'm not mistaken, also Bundesrepublik Deutschland).

The same with Berliner Stadtschloss.

Only private investors will not reconstruct the whole old town, even in such wealthy country like Germany.

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I'm personally just not a fan of collectivism and government overreach I don't see that as " progress" I personally think we make a big mistake when we allow government to control our lives and look to it for our sustenance.
Perhaps. But there are plenty of examples of large reconstruction projects coordinated and at least co-founded by the government (state/province/city).

It would be nice if you present a single large reconstruction project made purely on commercial basis.
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Last edited by Mruczek; June 28th, 2016 at 01:10 AM.
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Old June 27th, 2016, 02:02 PM   #5464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertwood View Post
Well I think that a conservative would probably want the reconstructions privately funded but I see no reason why government could not set design rules and let the market work its magic. There is, after all, a high demand for the buildings in Neumarkt. The market will respond. I would point out that the Frauenkirche was rebuilt through private donations and that the reconstruction of the Berlin Palace exterior is being done through private donations, I'm personally just not a fan of collectivism and government overreach I don't see that as " progress" I personally think we make a big mistake when we allow government to control our lives and look to it for our sustenance.
Well said. And the demand for historic reconstructions is high; if it were not, the interest in, publicity for, and commitment to such projects would be on the level of interest in the building of glass box replacements. While there is a large faction of population who 'don't care' what a cityscape looks like, that faction is not what fuels the demand of which you speak. Rather, the other large faction of interested and involved locals and tourists who want the reconstructions so they can spend time and money enjoying the views and adding to the economy.
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Old June 28th, 2016, 04:27 AM   #5465
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It would be nice if you present a single large reconstruction project made purely on commercial basis.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what you mean by purely commercial. If you mean something was rebuilt as a commercial venture I still think you would be wrong.Certainly you can't deny the importance of private donations in rebuilding monuments. I will give you a u.s. example. In Boston Mass. an architectural treasure called the Tontine Crescent designed by famed Boston architect Charles Bulfinch was destroyed in the late 1800s or early 1900s and was rebuilt by a developer in the 1980s or 90s pretty much as it was originally designed. In Germany I believe the Frauenkiche was done by private people with private money (donations). I don't know for sure but I believe the Braunsweig Palace which is a shopping center was done by a developer. Of course there is a place for government. I just do not agree with the premise that but for the government none of this rebuilding would happen. I guess have more faith in the private sector than you do. This is not to say that I believe the market should run without any restriction. Regulation has its place.
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Old June 28th, 2016, 10:03 PM   #5466
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finally visited Dresden this spring. overall, really liked the city. we stayed by the train station. the walk to the old town along the ped mall lined with updated commie blocks was I think one of the most pleasant aspects of the city, very livable city. the socialist realist architecture is mostly excellent. aside from a few blocks the old town is starting to feel fairly intact and complete. castle and opera house and frauenkirche were our favourite landmarks, even stayed for a service.

the one aspect that detracted from our appreciation of this lovely city were the contemporary vernacular style townhouses that filled in gaps between faithful reconstructions. all of us concurred that this doesn't feel or look right even if it is historically more honest. the reconstructions were superb, actually spent time watching craftsmen polishing and fitting a limestone detail on one building.

overall I was expecting a sadder city, but it is actually very nice.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old June 28th, 2016, 11:43 PM   #5467
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Old July 1st, 2016, 09:27 PM   #5468
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Dinglingerhaus free of scaffolding

http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org...492#post227492

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Old July 2nd, 2016, 12:14 AM   #5469
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From Strykr
Quote:
Considering public money is being used to build much of this, I don't think you would find a real "conservative" who would support any of this (assuming we are talking in terms of economic policy). A classical liberal is essentially a fiscal conservative, and wouldn't support any of this either.
Hello!

I like to clear things up a little bit.
There is no tax money in the Neumarkt project. The buildings are all private. The projects are so slow, because the buildings seen here on this thread are also two floors deep in the ground for basements, deliveries, technical rooms and underground parking. Said that, most buildings around Neumarkt are 10 floors high including flood proof double or triple basements. That classifies, if the rooms are higher to the ceilings, theoretically as small high-rises. Practically they are not because that start at 10 floors. But this makes them expansive. Also, 1990 and the years after the "wende", more then 80% of the people living in Dresden lost their jobs. The economy collapsed completely. No rich "Germany". And the Government spends no money here. The only money spending was used to repave the roads and fix the waterlines. That was not paid out of taxes either, the government spend the sale intake for selling the plots.

Many other projects are without tax money. The Schloss in Braunschweig is a good example. A investor uses the former Park and parts of the Schloss and the town gets for free ownership on the rebuild including original rebuild interior rooms.

Or the Schloss in Hanover. Also just finished. Was paid for by VW funding. Used as meeting and congress center. I have more private examples including Nuernberg, Frankfurt (Both Fankfurts have re-constructions going on. Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder. 600 km apart.) Or Schloss Zerbst in the town of Anhalt and so on.......

Let us talk about The Schloss in Berlin and Potsdam, please.
The Schloss in Potsdam was tax money driven. true. But the build was going to be build anyway. The current building that housed the legislature has the original central heating from 1908! The Fire escape was over the attic !?! The Newbuild fits perfectly, shows the victory of democracy and saved the government thru donations. (Ok. Maybe the build came more expansive because of reconstruction.) So the government may saved nothing but spend nothing. Alias it helped the economy.

The Berlin Stadtschloss has not been a burden for the government at all.
(Berlin is almost bankrupt by the way. So no rich Germany)
The Three levels of Government (Country, State and Community or City) had planned a huge building to be erected somewhere to be used as "Humbold Forum", alias museum`s expansion of the "Museum Island". The project was in the pipeline for over hundred years. The government was already tending to recycle the plot of the former Schloss, but with a new design. Just at that time different groups came forward to offer a free façade. If the planners would adapt to the old footprint of the castle.
The parliament, normally against re-constructions, fell in love with the idea. The only thing tax payers may have to pay is what's left of the façade if not enough donations come together. There was no other way, because the sculpture maker would not make the stone work if not sure about the timeline of their pay. It looks like no Tax need to be paid into this project at the moment. Talking about façade.

Frauenkirche. A massive project. There is little misunderstanding.
"Tax money was used! " Well, I don`t mind. People in Germany came to say "meine Fraunkirche" , my Frauenkirche when talking about her. (the church).
Anyway, there is a system in Germany that the Catholics (45%) and Protestants (35%) have their own official taxes withdrawn from their income by the treasury of the government. To my understanding the Church had a line of credit by the government. So taxes, if used, should have been paid back.
But if the government added some money, that should be fine. After all, without the church, the government was responsible for the pile of unsecured rubble in the middle of the Market.


One more thing: Rich Germany. That does not exist.
Germany has very high taxes. People in Germany are very unhappy with their government, to put it politely. To calm Germans down and to show off, the Government in G talks a lot about how much better it is in the country. Funny enough that is not true.
People in Italy, the States or before the crises even Greece had a higher wealth par capita. Let me explain.

The official calculation goes like this: A American has debt in form of a car loan, a mortgage and a credit card of minus 170 000 $
A German has debt in form of a car loan or TV loan, but savings at the bank. So, he has plus 20 000$

So official the German has 190 000 $ more.
But in reality the American, or Italian and others have a mortgage at 170 000 $ and a home valued at 450 000$. So in fact the American
(I use real numbers)
has 260 000$ more then an average German. In Berlin 75% of people rent. Many a lifetime. That is why there is money for vacation left.
That is usually the only money them people have left.

The same with German export: 80% of the shares of German shares are owned by mostly Americans, Some Arab exceptions.
Like Mercedes or Lufthansa or Deutsche Bank. (Witch has American Management and owned American)

The same is true for the politics. Remember Chinas huge Dollar reserves? Or Japan`s? Some, but only some of their reserves are pumped back to the states via borrowing back the money. They also buy mines in Australia. Or remember Saudi Arabia? They still own 12% of all American Shares at the stock market. Well Germany makes more then China and not just for the past 10 Years. Now Germanys Central Bank changes the Dollar in Euro, before DM and sends the Dollar back to the FED. It is done this way since WW2. Last Year 265 Billion Dollar. Cool.
Rich Germany. Right. It`s a Trojan Hoarse this Germany. If the EU fails, Germany is to blame. If it works, money goes to the private FED. Federal Reserve Agency, protected by the USA army. FED (It is not Federal, has not Reserve and is no Agency)

Last edited by The Eagle; July 2nd, 2016 at 12:57 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 01:08 AM   #5470
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Pictures!





The whole corner


Sandstone


Last floor


Now the Dinglinger haus












The whole front has the curve in it


The windows are not finished











Tank you Millennio Secondo!
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 01:27 AM   #5471
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Part II

The two Renaissance houses have become gray/blue. The windows are good, too




This is the other building. What was it name?


I don`t understand: They painted the houses, not plastering them with painted plaster




From the Church tower


Nice: They used two colored tiles


The Dinglinger house





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Old July 3rd, 2016, 01:36 AM   #5472
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Some more pictures, because there are five reconstructions about to be finished soon!














































picks come from Bausituation Dresden
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 01:48 AM   #5473
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The Triersche House is coming along!











The interior


The design fits. See the loggias thru the glass above













picks from Bausituation Dresden
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:08 AM   #5474
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This is all SO WONDERFUL!
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:09 AM   #5475
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I have a mad, mad crush on the Dinglingerhaus.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 03:10 PM   #5476
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They told Dresden they couldn't rebuild their old city, but Dresden did it anyway
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Old July 4th, 2016, 03:31 AM   #5477
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Hey Eagle: Thanks for clearing up about who is paying for the reconstructions in Germany. One thing I think we all agree on is that Dresden is getting better all the time and is getting back some of what was lost. I also thank you for your pictures!
I was very surprised to hear that so many Germans are renters. Wow! All we hear about here is how rich Germany is.
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Old July 4th, 2016, 11:35 AM   #5478
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It is not necessarily a question of being rich or don't to have home ownership.
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Old July 4th, 2016, 12:59 PM   #5479
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picks from Bausituation Dresden
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Old July 5th, 2016, 01:45 AM   #5480
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I was very surprised to hear that so many Germans are renters. Wow! All we hear about here is how rich Germany is.
Huh? What has one thing to do with the other? I know very well off people that rent and some not so well off people that have a house. It's more a cultural thing I guess.
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