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Old April 29th, 2017, 03:58 AM   #5801
qjone2
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Quote:
http://transit.berkeley.edu/2016/mcfarland/

Oh God, I actually made it through this prepotent, God-awful, piece-of-s*it article without puking all over my laptop.
That piece was more sad and alarmist than anything else. How fragile some modernists are in regards to any potential threat to their monopoly on our cityscapes. The repeated comparisons to "zombies" is obviously a scare tactic aimed at other insecure modernists.

15 whole reconstructions in Frankfurt?! I can see the bloody knives in their hands already, a fatal thrust into the tender gut of modernism!

Really though, this is nothing to worry about. A condescending article aimed at stirring up trouble over nothing, given the minuscule amount of reconstructions occurring in Germany at the moment.
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Old April 29th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #5802
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Why is it that there are no proposals to reconstruct the area around the Taschenbergpalais? Is it because it would require demolitions? Surely that can't be too bad — they're doing enough of it in Potsdam to pave the way for reconstructions.

It is within reason, seeing as the street plan there is actually intact and it wouldn't encroach unecessarily on the Wilsdruffer Strasse.

The highlighted section is the area prior to WWII:



The same area today:



I know some people have come to like the small square created by the absence of the upper block, and perhaps that area need not be reconstructed, but the large block near Wilsdruffer Strasse could very well be redeveloped, and would be very worthwhile IMO, given some of the amazing structures once located there.

Some pictures:







(The houses in the above image are both a bit aged, but would, I think, look great if reconstructed)



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Old April 29th, 2017, 09:31 PM   #5803
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One reason is that a large portion is already newly constructed; as crap, but nonetheless new. Even crap gets to stand at least 20 years before anyone is willing to tear it down.

Also, the little open area between the Schloss, Taschenbergpalais, and the buildings to the south has been designated as open space.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 07:39 AM   #5804
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One reason is that a large portion is already newly constructed; as crap, but nonetheless new. Even crap gets to stand at least 20 years before anyone is willing to tear it down.
Dresden really needs am über-rich investor willing to reconstruct some of its historical fabric If only someone on this thread was rolling in dough haha
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Old April 30th, 2017, 02:15 PM   #5805
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Dresden really needs am über-rich investor willing to reconstruct some of its historical fabric If only someone on this thread was rolling in dough haha
Even that wouldn't help much if there is no political will. Many politicians (but also a certain part of the populace) are staunchly against tearing down GDR architecture or city planning in general, as ugly and misplaced as it may be, because they fear revision of history. They want to keep GDR traces in their city visible at all costs. In Berlin, Potsdam and Dresden they actually turned down a lot of great opportunities for that reason. Just recently the German government wanted to gift Berlin the restauration and relocation of the Neptune Fountain as well as the reconstruction of the colonnades opposite the City Palace/Humboldt-Forum. The leftist politicians in charge didn't have any of it! Not even as a gift. Same happens in Dresden and Potsdam all the time too. Donors and investors with great proposals are turned down because of purely ideological reasons.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #5806
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Even that wouldn't help much if there is no political will. Many politicians (but also a certain part of the populace) are staunchly against tearing down GDR architecture or city planning in general, as ugly and misplaced as it may be, because they fear revision of history. They want to keep GDR traces in their city visible at all costs. In Berlin, Potsdam and Dresden they actually turned down a lot of great opportunities for that reason. Just recently the German government wanted to gift Berlin the restauration and relocation of the Neptune Fountain as well as the reconstruction of the colonnades opposite the City Palace/Humboldt-Forum. The leftist politicians in charge didn't have any of it! Not even as a gift. Same happens in Dresden and Potsdam all the time too. Donors and investors with great proposals are turned down because of purely ideological reasons.
This is sad.

Even though I am of the opinion that there would be no real use in the demolition of buildings such as the Kulturpalast (because the Wilsdruffer Strasse is too wide to actually reconstruct the blocks it covers), I still think inharmonious buildings should be removed from the urban fabric as soon as possible. This inharmoniousness is especially evident in former Eastern Bloc countries/zones of influence (such as East Berlin), but can also be found in a lot of Europe in general as a result of rapid, chaotic post-war construction. Instead of preserving these buildings, Europe really ought to be revitalising their city centres by getting rid of inconvenient buildings while still preserving a sense of historical diversity (the two Stalinist buildings on the Altmarkt in Dresden are a great example of beautiful GDR buildings that should DEFINITELY be protected). Whether this be through historical reconstruction or just redevelopment is a matter of contention and varies from city to city, country to country. While I'm definitely in favour of further reconstructions in Dresden, Frankfurt etc., cities such as Berlin and Hamburg are great largely because of their juxtaposition of old and new.

What angers me most, though, is political resistance to that which the public usually desires. Politicians are supposed to be a vehicle through which the will of the people is excercised, and yet they are so often opposed to simple things such as this that the public loves.

Funny that those who denounce the supposed process of "historical revisionism" and the descecration of our physical history usually have nothing to say when no effort is made to save old buildings/districts from redevelopment.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 05:19 PM   #5807
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Originally Posted by qjone2 View Post
What angers me most, though, is political resistance to that which the public usually desires. Politicians are supposed to be a vehicle through which the will of the people is excercised, and yet they are so often opposed to simple things such as this that the public loves.

Funny that those who denounce the supposed process of "historical revisionism" and the descecration of our physical history usually have nothing to say when no effort is made to save old buildings/districts from redevelopment.
Logic, reason, and fairness cannot be applied to the understanding of political operatives, particularly those on the left.

I think it's absurd to even ponder the notion that, after 3-4 generations away from WWII, a replaced colonnade, fountain, or building is somehow going to launch a new blitzkrieg. What evidence is there to even hypothesize such?

Conversely, it seems far more likely that culture continually denied its historic roots of architecture would lead to a lot of anger and resentment. It's not like anyone is trying to rebuild the Chancellory on Voss Strasse. All of the initiatives for rebuilding are architectural treasures and/or uniquely historic structures that the entire non political world should have the right to experience and enjoy.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #5808
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Just so you know, I consider myself to be quite left-leaning — we don't all overpoliticise everything, and not everyone who supports reconstruction is a far-right extremist who wants to return us to the dark ages (some people genuinely seem to believe this) In saying that, I think everything is political to some extent, and we should be mindful of this.

Even so, I don't know why the reconstruction of significant old structures is such an issue. While architecture is inherently charged with the historical, political, and ideological contexts in which it was constructed and nurtured in, the general public doesn't think a great deal about this, a least not consciously. To them, a pretty building is often simply a pretty building, and an ugly building is often simply an ugly building.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 05:46 PM   #5809
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Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Just recently the German government wanted to gift Berlin the restauration and relocation of the Neptune Fountain as well as the reconstruction of the colonnades opposite the City Palace/Humboldt-Forum. The leftist politicians in charge didn't have any of it! Not even as a gift.
So what were their reasons? I just don't get it. The relocation of the Neptune Fountain wouldn't ruin any building, of DDR past or so.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #5810
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So what were their reasons? I just don't get it. The relocation of the Neptune Fountain wouldn't ruin any building, of DDR past or so.
They say it would destroy the Rathaus Forum aka the wasteland between City Palace and TV Tower, if it was taken from there and relocated to its original place. (The funny thing is, they are also against making a copy of the fountain, so that there are two of them.) They see the current wasteland already as some sort of historical monument, as every bit of GDR. As I already mentioned, it can be as ugly, misplaced and rundown as possible, but as long as it was build in the GDR there will be people fighting for it till the bitter end. Same happens right now in Potsdam with the Mercure Hotel sitting directly on top of the old City Palace's garden:



Or the University of Applied Sciences on the Alter Mark:



People are honestly fighting for these monstrocities to stay, while they fight against reconstructions such as this on the opposite side of the square:

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Old April 30th, 2017, 06:58 PM   #5811
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The left sees itself together with some religious groups and the fascists aka Private Central Banks as the top of a movement. A movement to create a one world government.
The battle goes on all levels including the feeling of belonging.

Now, before some of You call me names, in Germany some officials talk open about it. For example, the former director of some department of the Stadtschloss. He even broke the law to slow reconstruction down. He gave an interesting public speech toward one world government and how he tried to help at low level. Police is looking into his behavior.
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Old April 30th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #5812
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Let us have some pictures. Four different constructions going on at the same time.













This is going to be an interesting corner.







source Dresdner-Bauten.de
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Old April 30th, 2017, 08:25 PM   #5813
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source Dresdner-Bauten.de
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Old April 30th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #5814
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Did you have the pics any smaller? XD



Edit:
Just click on the images /view them in full view before you get their link and post it:


http://www.dresdner-bauten.de/
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Old April 30th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #5815
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Can all this political name calling end? I think the German "Linke" and quite a substantial number from the "Grüne" are nutjobs and their politicisation of architecture is utter and total B.S. but reading the last page feels like: left of center --> Nazi communist authoritarian new world order traitor. On the american scale, I'd be considered a raging Marxist diehart liberal on many issues because I believe in universal healthcare, environmental and consumer protection, public education and so on. In Germany, I'm a centrist pending between the CDU, SPD and FDP most of the time. Still, you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is substantially more into historical reconstructions as well as newly built historicist/classicist/regionalist architecture as me. Don't let such a relatively minor thing like architecture blind you with generalized hate about millions of people in diverse political movements.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 03:25 AM   #5816
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Let us have some pictures. Four different constructions going on at the same time.
Which quarter is this? The all modern one or something else?
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Old May 1st, 2017, 03:58 PM   #5817
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Can all this political name calling end? I think the German "Linke" and quite a substantial number from the "Grüne" are nutjobs and their politicisation of architecture is utter and total B.S. but reading the last page feels like: left of center --> Nazi communist authoritarian new world order traitor. On the american scale, I'd be considered a raging Marxist diehart liberal on many issues because I believe in universal healthcare, environmental and consumer protection, public education and so on. In Germany, I'm a centrist pending between the CDU, SPD and FDP most of the time. Still, you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is substantially more into historical reconstructions as well as newly built historicist/classicist/regionalist architecture as me. Don't let such a relatively minor thing like architecture blind you with generalized hate about millions of people in diverse political movements.
Oh my. You are a valued supporter of historic rebuilding, as many of us are; and most appreciated. But, nearly every post bemoaning the lack of more robust progress for reconstructionism and opposition to the modernist takeover of most projects is shrouded in the theme "the politicians are at fault and are anti historic rebuilding because of dark periods of history and greater desire to preserve remnants of the DDR period." Is this interpretive summary wrong? I'm not so much a fan of labeling left/right politics, but for ease of categorizations, everyone does so. And, I don't think the politicians who are obstructing more historic rebuilds are right leaning conservatives, which places them in the category of left of center; more aligned with the theme noted above.

I also don't think that's anywhere near name-calling; in fact, I suspect these politicians are be pleased to be positioned on the left.

And by the by, the vast majority of Americans are supportive of public schools, environmental and consumer protections, and so on, and are not at all considered raging marxist diehard liberals. In fact, education, environment, fair and honest business practices, personal responsibility, etc have always been conservative agendas. (Universal healthcare is a stickler, yes.)
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Old May 1st, 2017, 10:24 PM   #5818
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Oh my. You are a valued supporter of historic rebuilding, as many of us are; and most appreciated. But, nearly every post bemoaning the lack of more robust progress for reconstructionism and opposition to the modernist takeover of most projects is shrouded in the theme "the politicians are at fault and are anti historic rebuilding because of dark periods of history and greater desire to preserve remnants of the DDR period." Is this interpretive summary wrong? I'm not so much a fan of labeling left/right politics, but for ease of categorizations, everyone does so. And, I don't think the politicians who are obstructing more historic rebuilds are right leaning conservatives, which places them in the category of left of center; more aligned with the theme noted above.
I don't disagree with anything here. Most politicians against historical reconstructions are certainly on the left. What I was complaining about was not the presentation of the fact that obstruction often comes from the (far) left moreso than the generalization of that.

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I also don't think that's anywhere near name-calling; in fact, I suspect these politicians are be pleased to be positioned on the left.
Calling out bullshit based on ideology isn't namecalling.

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Originally Posted by The Eagle View Post
The left sees itself together with some religious groups and the fascists aka Private Central Banks as the top of a movement. A movement to create a one world government.
The battle goes on all levels including the feeling of belonging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Logic, reason, and fairness cannot be applied to the understanding of political operatives, particularly those on the left.
I'm not sure if this meets the definition of "namecalling" either but at the very least is a deragatory generalization of everybody on the left without much basis in fact and in its nature is unproductive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
And by the by, the vast majority of Americans are supportive of public schools, environmental and consumer protections, and so on, and are not at all considered raging marxist diehard liberals. In fact, education, environment, fair and honest business practices, personal responsibility, etc have always been conservative agendas. (Universal healthcare is a stickler, yes.)
Right now, the majority of Americans (not just conservatives) have elected politicians that are openly anti-public education, environmental and consumer protection etc.
The environment only is a conservative agenda (in the U.S., not necessarily in other countries e.g. Germany) if it's not pesky to corporate profits (which is almost always).
Same goes for fair business practices (which in effect means it's not a conservative thing at all because the wealthy donor companies benefit from unfair practices) etc.
Additionally, all these things can largely only be archieved with - wait for it - government regulations which yes, the support of which makes me a raging diehard marxist liberal to many on the right (in the states, just to be clear again).
I'll give you personal responsibility but that often works out to "should have walked off that pre-existing condition or you could have worked hard enough to become a millionaire, maybe then you wouldn't have died because you couldn't pay your medical bills." (Although to be fair, I would support liberals in the U.S. advocating more along the lines of moderate personal responsebility as well.) The hipocrisy on the American right with this is also quite astounding, given the fact that the very first attempted act in the current (conservative) Congress was to gut the body that is supposed to hold the people on Congress responsible.

So that leads to one of two conclusions:
either 1) conservatives in the U.S. are in line with the beliefs of the politicians they elected (anti-environment, consumer protections, science, public education, privacy, etc, etc, often sold as "pro-growth" or "for more freedom" or "the Constitution doesn't mandate we spend money on this", etc.)

or 2) american conservatives are stupid enough to continue to elect people that directly contradict tons of their personal beliefs.

I'll let you pick your own conclusion.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 10:47 PM   #5819
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A shame the building to the right in the corner has to be modern
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 01:20 AM   #5820
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I don't disagree with anything here. Most politicians against historical reconstructions are certainly on the left. What I was complaining about was not the presentation of the fact that obstruction often comes from the (far) left moreso than the generalization of that.



Calling out bullshit based on ideology isn't namecalling.





I'm not sure if this meets the definition of "namecalling" either but at the very least is a deragatory generalization of everybody on the left without much basis in fact and in its nature is unproductive.



Right now, the majority of Americans (not just conservatives) have elected politicians that are openly anti-public education, environmental and consumer protection etc.
The environment only is a conservative agenda (in the U.S., not necessarily in other countries e.g. Germany) if it's not pesky to corporate profits (which is almost always).
Same goes for fair business practices (which in effect means it's not a conservative thing at all because the wealthy donor companies benefit from unfair practices) etc.
Additionally, all these things can largely only be archieved with - wait for it - government regulations which yes, the support of which makes me a raging diehard marxist liberal to many on the right (in the states, just to be clear again).
I'll give you personal responsibility but that often works out to "should have walked off that pre-existing condition or you could have worked hard enough to become a millionaire, maybe then you wouldn't have died because you couldn't pay your medical bills." (Although to be fair, I would support liberals in the U.S. advocating more along the lines of moderate personal responsebility as well.) The hipocrisy on the American right with this is also quite astounding, given that fact that the very first attempted act in the current (conservative) Congress was to gut the body that is supposed to hold the people on Congress responsible.

So that leads to one of two conclusions:
either 1) conservatives in the U.S. are in line with the beliefs of the politicians they elected (anti-environment, consumer protections, science, public education, privacy, etc, etc, often sold as "pro-growth" or "for more freedom" or "the Constitution doesn't mandate we spend money on this", etc.)

or 2) american conservatives are stupid enough to continue to elect people that directly contradict tons of their personal beliefs.

I'll let you pick your own conclusion.
I'll be chastised for continuing a discussion not in line with the thread subject, but happy to point out some incorrectnesses or misunderstandings in a private chat, if you like.
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