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Old August 23rd, 2008, 03:31 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
What exactly is a "human scale"? 2m high architecture? And if commieblocks looked like that, I'd be the biggest commieblock lover around.
The height isn't so much important. Skyscrapers or cathedrals do not have human scale, but this lack is their main goal.
If I see blocks like these, I can't help myself but it has impersonal feeling. It's monotonous, just look at all those dormers, only roof tells us this is not commieblock but old house. These houses can't surprise you a lot, they lacks any architectonical idea. They form streets and squares which is good for Dresden, but it's facade effect is rather poor.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 03:41 PM   #782
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I don't really like the Hotel de Saxe either but that's what it looked like. No floors were added (same thing with the buildings mentioned on the previous page) and in this case no dormers were added either.

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Old August 23rd, 2008, 03:44 PM   #783
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kokpit: What the crap are you talking about?

The shown buildings were built in the middle of the 18 th century. Those are baroque, no historicist ones!

There are just a few buildings that were built or refashioned in the 19th/20th century, such as the Au petit Bazar or the corner building of QIII.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 03:53 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
Yes, but even on those old pics you can see the houses didn't have so much dormers, have less floors, looked smaller and more cosy.
They didn't have less floors in general. That's a wrong claim. There might have been a bit less dormers, but that's really nothing that makes something less human scale or less cosy. I actually like those dormers.

I have no idea how you can claim the street scape looked smaller as it wasn't smaller. In my opinion it also doesn't look smaller.


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I think adding more dormers ruined general feeling of these blocks quite a lot.
How that? Those buildings had already a lot of dormers before the war. Now some of the new buildings have a few more of them. I fail to see how this fact could turn the Neumarkt reconstructions into human scale lacking uncozy commieblocks.

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True is that before ww2 it lacked human scale too, this can be problem of end-of-19th-century german architecture generally. Vienna has this strange block-feeling too, most buildings in the centre were built at the end of 19th century.
Thats not correct. If you know Vienna you know that the old town is dominated rather by baroque buildings than Gründerzeit buildings. You might have the Ringstraße buildings and the inner city districts in mind. There it is true it is dominated by Gründerzeit buildings. Even though also the inner districts have older parts as well.

Its funny you call it "German architecture" as it was not limited at all to the German speaking sphere. Vienna is also better described by having a street net rather than a raster and lets be honest its not like Prague would not know those street scapes either. It might be not as extensive there only because the commieblock single home mish mash starts earlier than in Vienna.


Whereas, I can't share your criticism either. Vienna is very human scale. It's not medieval though, maybe thats what you are looking for, but there are also other style periods that created very liveable human sized cities.

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Most of buildings have similar square windows, similar storey height, frontages are flat without many ledges and ornaments and buildings form monotonous huge blocks, mostly right-angled. In the narrow street it doesn't matter so much, but in the square it is obvious.
Thats not correct either. The do not all have the same windows, nor the same frames, nor the same room height. Actually especially in the picture you quoted above they are pretty much the same as before the war with their exterior except maybe some of them having a few more dormers. Ornaments and other stuff you seem to miss were not present at those historical buildings either.

It seems to mee you would not have liked the original square either.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 03:56 PM   #785
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The shown buildings were built in the middle of the 18 th century. Those are baroque, no historicist ones!
They seem to me too much flat and even to be baroque, but you might be right. However this change nothing about the general feeling.
On Kampflamm photo it is visible the buildings used to be more various before WW2, mind the building beside the hotel

I quite like this one, this is what I call human scale. Busy square, shops, various houses. That is architecture for people.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:03 PM   #786
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Quote:
On Kampflamm photo it is visible the buildings used to be more various before WW2
More various? The buildings seen in that shot have all been (or will be) reconstruced. What's more, in the shot that you posted I spotted 7 different styles.

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I quite like this one, this is what I call human scale. Busy square, shops, various houses. That is architecture for people.
There are shops, cafes etc at the Neumarkt as well. I'm sure once it's "enclosed" and finished, it'll become one of the nicest areas in Dresden, with people strolling across it, having dinner or a coffee...
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:08 PM   #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
They seem to me too much flat and even to be baroque, but you might be right. However this change nothing about the general feeling.
On Kampflamm photo it is visible the buildings used to be more various before WW2, mind the building beside the hotel

I quite like this one, this is what I call human scale. Busy square, shops, various houses. That is architecture for people.
Are you for real? The square was a friggin parking lot.

The buildings also have only a small dose of ornaments and lots of rectangular repeating elements, that you seem to dislike.

It also seems you have distorted picture of baroque buildings. They often where rather decent and not over the top at all on the exterior even though some of them were more elaborate.

Busy streets and squares, shops varied buildings.., all that the Neumarkt has. Your criticism seems a bit odd. It seems you dislike it because its not medieval in reality.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:32 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
They didn't have less floors in general. That's a wrong claim. There might have been a bit less dormers, but that's really nothing that makes something less human scale or less cosy. I actually like those dormers.
I have no idea how you can claim the street scape looked smaller as it wasn't smaller. In my opinion it also doesn't look smaller.
May be if the dormers were smaller it could help. After reconstruction it looks there is nearly no roof, just another floor. You can be right about the height, but that's the feeling. Monotonous repeting of same windows makes the building to look more massive, may be taller and less cosy.

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How that? Those buildings had already a lot of dormers before the war. Now some of the new buildings have a few more of them. I fail to see how this fact could turn the Neumarkt reconstructions into human scale lacking uncozy commieblocks.
The architecture is a bit cold and impersonal, that's the main problem. Dormers are too big, I understand it's good for investors, but facade look suffer. It could look like this before war, but it doesn't change much.

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Thats not correct. If you know Vienna you know that the old town is dominated rather by baroque buildings than Gründerzeit buildings. You might have the Ringstraße buildings and the inner city districts in mind. There it is true it is dominated by Gründerzeit buildings. Even though also the inner districts have older parts as well.
Problem of Vienna and many other european cities is it was too rich and too much expanding at the end of 19th and nearly completely rebuilt in historician style. It lost lots of it's history back then. Some buildings were preserved, but most were rebuild. Vienna is more grand but less cosy. In fact old Dresden reminds me of Vienna a lot.

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Its funny you call it "German architecture" as it was not limited at all to the German speaking sphere. Vienna is also better described by having a street net rather than a raster and lets be honest its not like Prague would not know those street scapes either. It might be not as extensive there only because the commieblock single home mish mash starts earlier than in Vienna.
I think something like German architecture did exist. Paris is grand as Vienna, but it's different. True is that it can be described as central europe architecture too, but comparing for example czech and german or austrian cities, there are many differences. Central Prague was nearly untouched by historician styles of 19th century, the only exception is jewish ghetto which was completely destroyed. 19th century style districts were build on the edges of the city centre, and yes, it's street grid is boring.

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Whereas, I can't share your criticism either. Vienna is very human scale. It's not medieval though, maybe thats what you are looking for, but there are also other style periods that created very liveable human sized cities.
Vienna is beautiful, but more grand than human scale. I has capital city feeling, so it can't avoid of impersonalism. But sure, it has cosy places too, plenty of them.

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It seems to mee you would not have liked the original square either.
I don't know, it is possible. But I'm talking about the feeling after the reconstruction and can't help myself. The building themselves might be accurate reproductions. Still, at least the dormers could be smaller.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:39 PM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
More various? The buildings seen in that shot have all been (or will be) reconstruced.
That's good, it could shatter the monotonous feeling I have from houses built so far.

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There are shops, cafes etc at the Neumarkt as well. I'm sure once it's "enclosed" and finished, it'll become one of the nicest areas in Dresden, with people strolling across it, having dinner or a coffee...
That will help a lot, nowadays it's still like foreigner body. It would be nice if they change the dormers but that's just me...
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:55 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Are you for real? The square was a friggin parking lot.
better cars than empty space, but let's see how the buildings differ from each other. That's the thing that makes the square less boring, in fact such variety of styles makes it vivid.

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The buildings also have only a small dose of ornaments and lots of rectangular repeating elements, that you seem to dislike.
At least they change size of windows, there is no hell of dormers, there are signs on facades, shops with marguisis. Mind the dark narrow house, just one different element which different frontage shape and windowsand it makes the whole square look much less boring. The towers behind add a lot too.

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It also seems you have distorted picture of baroque buildings. They often where rather decent and not over the top at all on the exterior even though some of them were more elaborate.
I dunno about german speaking countries, but in Czech Rep the baroque is quite "dynamic" style and has more ornaments than renascence for example. There was hardly any style with more ornaments, may be art deco but that's another chapter.

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Busy streets and squares, shops varied buildings.., all that the Neumarkt has. Your criticism seems a bit odd. It seems you dislike it because its not medieval in reality.
There's no problem it's not medieval, it just needs more variety in my eyes. However, I expect in the future it will look better than now, shortly after reconstruction. I'm convinced more and more smaller dormers would be great.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 06:14 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
That's good, it could shatter the monotonous feeling I have from houses built so far.
How exactly is it monotonous?

image hosted on flickr


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[IMG]http://i38.************/mvksjk.jpg[/IMG]

What were you expecting? Half-timbered houses and gothic palaces?
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:29 PM   #792
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These last pictures look so awesome!
(and not monotonous at all...)

I can't await the reconctruction of the beautiful Hotel Stadt Rom.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:37 PM   #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
May be if the dormers were smaller it could help. After reconstruction it looks there is nearly no roof, just another floor. You can be right about the height, but that's the feeling. Monotonous repeting of same windows makes the building to look more massive, may be taller and less cosy.
They are not the same windows. Thats incorrect. Of course if you claim that everything with less window diversity than a Hundertwasser building is monotonous, its monotonous for you. Such a demand would be a bit out of the world however.

And back to the photo, it can't seem larger because the buildings back then were not only of same size but similar in style.

Quote:
The architecture is a bit cold and impersonal, that's the main problem. Dormers are too big, I understand it's good for investors, but facade look suffer. It could look like this before war, but it doesn't change much.
You have an exotic idea of "cold and impersonal". Most of what you criticize was the same way with the original. And your dislike for dormers is something I encounter the first time. Actually dorners rather improve the impression of a building. I am sure I am her with the majority opinion.

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Problem of Vienna and many other european cities is it was too rich and too much expanding at the end of 19th and nearly completely rebuilt in historician style. It lost lots of it's history back then. Some buildings were preserved, but most were rebuild. Vienna is more grand but less cosy. In fact old Dresden reminds me of Vienna a lot.
Actually the Gründerzeitbauten in the old town add surprisingly well to the other older styles. The mixture increase in fact the variety in an attractive way.
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I think something like German architecture did exist. Paris is grand as Vienna, but it's different. True is that it can be described as central europe architecture too, but comparing for example czech and german or austrian cities, there are many differences. Central Prague was nearly untouched by historician styles of 19th century, the only exception is jewish ghetto which was completely destroyed. 19th century style districts were build on the edges of the city centre, and yes, it's street grid is boring.
You forgot already in which country Prague was located in for a long time. In Vienna worked Bohemian architects as well as in Bohemia Architects from other regions of the empire. Of course less of construction work took place in Prague during the Gründerzeit, which explains why Prague looks largely medieval, more like Graz (even though larger) than Vienna. The Ringstraßen project was after all one of the largest urban development projects of its time.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 09:00 PM   #794
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better cars than empty space, but let's see how the buildings differ from each other. That's the thing that makes the square less boring, in fact such variety of styles makes it vivid.
Car deserts cause nowadays deserted low quality public space, so your argument work for those past days but not for our times.


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I dunno about german speaking countries, but in Czech Rep the baroque is quite "dynamic" style and has more ornaments than renascence for example. There was hardly any style with more ornaments, may be art deco but that's another chapter.
Baroque is a dynamic style but there are large differences within that style. Its no problem to find something truly over the top, for example Rococco. Thats principally over the top baroque. Historicist buildings can be also more over the top than baroque ones. Btw, baroque Vienna was built by Italian and Austrian (old-Austrians) architects, not German ones.





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There's no problem it's not medieval, it just needs more variety in my eyes. However, I expect in the future it will look better than now, shortly after reconstruction. I'm convinced more and more smaller dormers would be great.
If its no problem that its not medieval why are your arguments tailor made in favour of medieval old towns?
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 10:05 PM   #795
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gothic palaces
What the frog is that? Please show me some
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 10:27 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post

image hosted on flickr
Thanks God house on the right has no square windows.

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[IMG]http://i38.************/mvksjk.jpg[/IMG]
few rounded motifs on facade, some ornaments, one oriel and the result is it forms quite decent block. That's the diversity I like. However, with less striking dormers and more variety in window shapes, it would look even better.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 11:08 PM   #797
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@Slartibartfas: what surprise me about this reconstruction is purism of most houses: nearly no ornaments on facades, no oriels, no balconys, same windows, in majority square, no arcades, no statues. Such houses look aloof and airless. That's why it reminds me colored commieblock a bit. Dormers are OK, but sometimes less is more. These houses are overdormered, dormers are too big, even the roof is sometimes nearly not visible.
about the Prague, yes, it was part of Austria for three centuries, but despite that it looks different than Austrian cities. German cities differ even more.

Quote:
If its no problem that its not medieval why are your arguments tailor made in favour of medieval old towns?
Paris is no medieval and look how all that buildings from 19th century work together. It's all about the facade feeling. Add some balcony, few ornaments, design unigue shape of window and it won't look monotonous even with square street grid. If all houses are more or less the same, moreover with flat purist facade, than it can't be nothing but boring.
Hundertwasser is great btw.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #798
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Paris is no medieval and look how all that buildings from 19th century work together. It's all about the facade feeling. Add some balcony, few ornaments, design unigue shape of window and it won't look monotonous even with square street grid. If all houses are more or less the same, moreover with flat purist facade, than it can't be nothing but boring.
Hundertwasser is great btw.
If there is a city with a monotonous feel to it, than it is Paris (because of Haussmann). The facades in great parts of the city centre are almost all the same...

I'm sorry, but reading through your posts, you are contradicting yourself all the time.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:14 AM   #799
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If you've seen one street in Paris, you've seen them all.

Don't get me wrong though, I love the city and for some odd reason I liked it better than Vienna. Maybe because of the uniformity?

Quote:
Thanks God house on the right has no square windows.
Most windows tend to be shaped like that. Show me one city that has a majority of non-square shaped windows.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #800
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If there is a city with a monotonous feel to it, than it is Paris (because of Haussmann). The facades in great parts of the city centre are almost all the same...
I quite don't agree, they were built in same style, but there is more diversity than in majority of Dresden houses. Facades are not that featureless.
Look at this one, quite typical Paris tenant house. Mind the ornaments, all that balconies, there are some arches too. Even windows differ on one building, they are all square but have different diemnsions. That make this common house attractive. It communicates with it's surroundings.

In Dresden majority of houses look withdrawn and reserved. It seems there is too much order, facade is flat. This it typical window and facade fragment repeated again and again.
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