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Old August 24th, 2008, 11:07 AM   #801
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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
If you've seen one street in Paris, you've seen them all.

Don't get me wrong though, I love the city and for some odd reason I liked it better than Vienna. Maybe because of the uniformity?
No, because of the diversity . There is something like typical Paris street, yes, but something make you want to see more and more such streets. Houses are in same style, but you have never enough of them.
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Most windows tend to be shaped like that. Show me one city that has a majority of non-square shaped windows.
In case of Dresden, non square windows is probably the only chance for a bit of diversity. Square shape is good, but in Dresden case it seems they invented universal window which is being used almost everywhere.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 11:54 AM   #802
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During the last couple of weeks I was on a journey through Germany and I had the chance to visit Dresden for the second time in abut ten years. I find this town simply extraordinary.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #803
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[QUOTE=kokpit;24389450]@Slartibartfas: what surprise me about this reconstruction is purism of most houses: nearly no ornaments on facades, no oriels, no balconys, same windows, in majority square, no arcades, no statues. Such houses look aloof and airless. That's why it reminds me colored commieblock a bit. Dormers are OK, but sometimes less is more. These houses are overdormered, dormers are too big, even the roof is sometimes nearly not visible.

Quote:
about the Prague, yes, it was part of Austria for three centuries, but despite that it looks different than Austrian cities. German cities differ even more.
The connection to the Holy Roman Eimpire and later on to Habsburg Austria directly goes far beyond 300 years length. For a certain time the connection existed even under the opposite terms with Prague being the capital of a common entity. I can understand that Czech nationalism wants to isolate the Czech history, its not different for Austrian nationalism towards Germany. Fact is however that we have considerable quantity of common history. We shared even a number of common architects.To claim for example a city cewnter like that one from Brünn or Brno would differ from Austrian architecture dramatically is only laughable. I would be also enlightened to hear what makes the architecture in Prague so incomparable to styles found in Austria?


Come on thats ridiculous, don't you realize it?
There are ornaments on the buildings, that its only in a decent way may have with the fact that it was no differen before the war. The same for balconies. Windows vary as well, I repeat mayself, if you are longing for a Hundertwasser house in terms of window variety, thats your problem. The square form is 100% authentic and will be once the area is completed surrounded by narrow streets.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 02:07 PM   #804
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The connection to the Holy Roman Eimpire and later on to Habsburg Austria directly goes far beyond 300 years length. For a certain time the connection existed even under the opposite terms with Prague being the capital of a common entity. I can understand that Czech nationalism wants to isolate the Czech history, its not different for Austrian nationalism towards Germany. Fact is however that we have considerable quantity of common history. We shared even a number of common architects.To claim for example a city cewnter like that one from Brünn or Brno would differ from Austrian architecture dramatically is only laughable. I would be also enlightened to hear what makes the architecture in Prague so incomparable to styles found in Austria?
That's for sure Czech history is connected with Holy Roman Empire and between 17-20 th century especially with Austria, could be hardly denied. About Czech nationalism, I doubt there's hardly any. May be Austrians think Czechs still dislike Habsburgs, but in our culture after WW1, period with Austrians is remembered almost solely as positive, in fact it's some kind of nostalgy. We were opressed, we could never become identify with Austria rulers, but it was all forgotten after formation of Czechoslovakia. That's not case of Nazism and Sudeten Germans from Austria and Germany though.
About the architecture, there are differences. Good you mentioned Brno, because there lived significant minority of Germans and German Jews. Thus it's architecture is similar more to Vienna's than Prague's. There was developement of major part of city centre at the same time as in Vienna.
This street could be easily in Vienna. However, Brno was impacted by modernist interwar architecture too and that was no less important for Brno general visage.


Unlike Prague, Vienna lost majority of it's historical buildings during 19th century. Prague is specific with Malá Strana district surroundings Prague Castle with plenty of mostly baroque palaces, also Old town and Jewish quarter is something Vienna don't have. We shared many architects in the past, but thanks to history circumstances, our cities look different in the end.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 02:12 PM   #805
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Kokpit, I don't really know if you have something against Dresden or not but your points don't really make a whole lot of sense.

No, because of the diversity . There is something like typical Paris street, yes, but something make you want to see more and more such streets. Houses are in same style, but you have never enough of them.

Paris is many things...beautiful, enchanting, amazing...but its architecture certainly isn't what I would call "diverse." You can't on the one hand complain about the monotonousness of Dresden (because of square windows) and then praise Paris for...having balconies on certain buildings?

To get back to the updates, here's a pic of the Schütz-Residenz. Wouldn't it be great to own an apartment with those big, square-windows overlooking the Neumarkt.

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Old August 24th, 2008, 02:42 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
That's for sure Czech history is connected with Holy Roman Empire and between 17-20 th century especially with Austria, could be hardly denied. About Czech nationalism, I doubt there's hardly any. May be Austrians think Czechs still dislike Habsburgs, but in our culture after WW1, period with Austrians is remembered almost solely as positive, in fact it's some kind of nostalgy.
Wasn't there a political feud against Schwarzenberg based on the myth that he is Austrian citizen? Anyway I have talked already to a Czech who sounded a little bit less friendly in this regard. It's however nice to see that there seem to be also people who have a kinder way to think about this all.

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We were opressed, we could never become identify with Austria rulers, but it was all forgotten after formation of Czechoslovakia. That's not case of Nazism and Sudeten Germans from Austria and Germany though.
Ehm, Sudeten Germans were not from Germany, they were from the Sudetenland, or other regions within Bohemia or Moravia. My former Chemistry teacher, god may bless him, was from Brno. He had was allowed to enjoy the Brünner deathmarch. He chose the right decision though, he never felt any hate against the Czech for what he experienced, quite the opposite actually, he was opposed to those who wanted to continue the tensions called for revenge. The Sudeten Germans did many ugly things, but the Czech side was not holy either and it would be only fair to admit the own acts of unjustice as well.

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About the architecture, there are differences. Good you mentioned Brno, because there lived significant minority of Germans and German Jews. Thus it's architecture is similar more to Vienna's than Prague's. There was developement of major part of city centre at the same time as in Vienna.
This street could be easily in Vienna. However, Brno was impacted by modernist interwar architecture too and that was no less important for Brno general visage.
That would be interesting to know how the interwar architecture in Brno looks like. But if it looks like in the picture above... to be honest I could not tell if it is Vienna or not. With the postwar buildings where bomb raids left their impact it pretty much looks the same in wide parts.

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Unlike Prague, Vienna lost majority of it's historical buildings during 19th century. Prague is specific with Malá Strana district surroundings Prague Castle with plenty of mostly baroque palaces, also Old town and Jewish quarter is something Vienna don't have. We shared many architects in the past, but thanks to history circumstances, our cities look different in the end.
Vienna has no jewish quarter? Huh?
It does not only have such a thing, it also has a quite large still intact and most importantly used synagogue there. Even though most of the modern jewish life is concentrated in the 2nd district nowadays, not in the jewish quarter in the first district.

Large parts of the older buildings outside of the Ringstraße have been destroyed, the same is not the case for the inner city. Or do you think the UNESCO people were on drugs when they declared the inner city to be world cultural heritage to a large extend because of its baroque heritage?

Of course not every city looks like the others, thats actually good that way. But have a look at Graz for example. It also hosts a large medieval/baroque old town, wit a small river and a hill with a fortress (even though the last remain of it are some walls and the clock tower because Napoleon caused the destruction of the rest). The point is that while other epoques are predominant cities the representants of the various times in Bohemia or Austria are not that different.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 04:36 PM   #807
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Wasn't there a political feud against Schwarzenberg based on the myth that he is Austrian citizen?
I think if in Austrian government would be minister with Czech citizenship, it will be problem for somebody too.

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Ehm, Sudeten Germans were not from Germany, they were from the Sudetenland, or other regions within Bohemia or Moravia. My former Chemistry teacher, god may bless him, was from Brno. He had was allowed to enjoy the Brünner deathmarch. He chose the right decision though, he never felt any hate against the Czech for what he experienced, quite the opposite actually, he was opposed to those who wanted to continue the tensions called for revenge. The Sudeten Germans did many ugly things, but the Czech side was not holy either and it would be only fair to admit the own acts of unjustice as well.
Yes, Sudeten Germans were from Sudetenland, but as they lived along border with Germany and Austria, you can divide them by their Austrian or German nationality. Czech side was certainly not holy after WW2. All illegal acts of resettlemnent which took place shortly after the end of war, including infamous Brno deathmarch, were condemned by all executive political institution after 1989 (even before). Especially for Brno deathmarch, it's municipality apologize for it after 1989. That all was illegal, however Beneš decrees about resettlement of german-speaking inhabitants are legal so far, so the resettlement after 1946 is still valid. Czech government only apologized for Sudeten antinazis, who were transfered too (some of them).

Quote:
That would be interesting to know how the interwar architecture in Brno looks like. But if it looks like in the picture above... to be honest I could not tell if it is Vienna or not. With the postwar buildings where bomb raids left their impact it pretty much looks the same in wide parts.
Brno was quite paradise for modernist interwar architects, typical buildings in the city centre looks like these
.

also functionalist villas like Tugendhat are well known. Brno was bombed during WW2 too, but the new developement after the war was way slower than in Vienna.

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Vienna has no jewish quarter? Huh?
It does not only have such a thing, it also has a quite large still intact and most importantly used synagogue there. Even though most of the modern jewish life is concentrated in the 2nd district nowadays, not in the jewish quarter in the first district.
Large parts of the older buildings outside of the Ringstraße have been destroyed, the same is not the case for the inner city. Or do you think the UNESCO people were on drugs when they declared the inner city to be world cultural heritage to a large extend because of its baroque heritage?
Not that Vienna has no jewish quarter, I just said it looks different compared to Prague's.
Vienna surely deserved to be on UNESCO list, where do you see I claim the opposite? It has historic values, but different that the Prague has. On the contrary Prague lacks grandness and symmetry that Vienna has.
Quote:
Of course not every city looks like the others, thats actually good that way. But have a look at Graz for example. It also hosts a large medieval/baroque old town, wit a small river and a hill with a fortress (even though the last remain of it are some walls and the clock tower because Napoleon caused the destruction of the rest). The point is that while other epoques are predominant cities the representants of the various times in Bohemia or Austria are not that different.
Graz is surely more medieval than Vienna, but it has different face than Prague. It's in another region, it's german speaking city, so it has his own architecture. You would search for such houses in Prague with no effect, it's typical Austrian city. Buildings in Bohemians cities looks different.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 04:58 PM   #808
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Kokpit, I don't really know if you have something against Dresden or not but your points don't really make a whole lot of sense.
Well, it's shame for me I'm not able to express clearly my feelings about majority of these houses. In fact, it's not that bad, it's still good, just, it could be better IMO. I still think when they decided to rebuilt whole central area, they could change the design, with some respect to the history, let's with respect of genius loci of the place. Architecture is never dead and it has still some progress. These houses are just imperfect copies of original, and the original wouldn't want to stay intact forever too.

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Paris is many things...beautiful, enchanting, amazing...but its architecture certainly isn't what I would call "diverse." You can't on the one hand complain about the monotonousness of Dresden (because of square windows) and then praise Paris for...having balconies on certain buildings?
So according to you, Paris must be monotonous. Well, but she is not, she is diverse. The style may be monotonous, but there is lot of diversity inside this style. You love her style, because she is simply exciting. But that's it, there is no other city as Paris, not everyone can be miss world.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 05:17 PM   #809
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They seem to me too much flat and even to be baroque, but you might be right. However this change nothing about the general feeling.
On Kampflamm photo it is visible the buildings used to be more various before WW2, mind the building beside the hotel

I quite like this one, this is what I call human scale. Busy square, shops, various houses. That is architecture for people.
Are you serious? It was a parking lot back then. Today its for people only.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #810
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Are you serious? It was a parking lot back then. Today its for people only.
you are second one beefing about the parking lot. However I'm talking about buildings.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #811
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I still think when they decided to rebuilt whole central area, they could change the design
Just what part of the word Rebuild to former state don't u understand?

and yes, omg, buildings with so called square windows, go figure.. whomever thought of that in the first place?! Every window should look different, that's classy and human!

Neumarkt is looking great I remember German lessons in high school 5 years ago. There was a lesson about Dresden and how they left the Frauenkirche in ruins as a reminder. Glad that part will be updated now hehe
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Old August 24th, 2008, 07:14 PM   #812
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I think if in Austrian government would be minister with Czech citizenship, it will be problem for somebody too.
But Schwarzenberg has no Austrian citizenship at all. In California they seem to have no problem with a governor with Austrian citizenship btw, but maybe thats one of the good sides specific to the US. Me personally I would not have a problem with ministers who has dual citizenships, especially if both are European. That sounds rather like a advantage than a disadvantage.

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Yes, Sudeten Germans were from Sudetenland, but as they lived along border with Germany and Austria, you can divide them by their Austrian or German nationality.
Whatever.
The point is they were brutally expelled from their own homeland. Not that they were holy themselves, but it was a crime against humanity as well. I am however not someone who will stick to this for eternity, my position is that all sides should stand to the crimes they committed and then together get over it by looking into a future, a common European future where those old feuds should have no place anymore.

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Czech side was certainly not holy after WW2. All illegal acts of resettlemnent which took place shortly after the end of war, including infamous Brno deathmarch, were condemned by all executive political institution after 1989 (even before). Especially for Brno deathmarch, it's municipality apologize for it after 1989. That all was illegal, however Beneš decrees about resettlement of german-speaking inhabitants are legal so far, so the resettlement after 1946 is still valid. Czech government only apologized for Sudeten antinazis, who were transfered too (some of them).
The point is that not every German speaking Bohemian who could not prove to be an Antinazi was a Nazi. The basic principle here, being guilty until proving the innocence is fundamentally against human rights. Has the Czech Republic excused already for that?
Its like saying that every Czech who can not prove that he actively stood up against that murderous ethnic cleansing is a criminal. That would be highly unjust as well. Do you understand my point of view?

Quote:
Brno was quite paradise for modernist interwar architects, typical buildings in the city centre looks like these
...
also functionalist villas like Tugendhat are well known. Brno was bombed during WW2 too, but the new developement after the war was way slower than in Vienna.
I think those modernist buildings are not extremely nice, but I could oerfectly feel home in Brno according to those pictures.

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Not that Vienna has no jewish quarter, I just said it looks different compared to Prague's.
Vienna surely deserved to be on UNESCO list, where do you see I claim the opposite? It has historic values, but different that the Prague has. On the contrary Prague lacks grandness and symmetry that Vienna has.
I did not want to accuse you of that, rest assured with this. My point was that the Inner city did not get the title for its symmetry, but for its baroque heritage among others.
The grandness is a correct point, but its mostly to be found on the brink of the inner city at the Ringstraße and not inside of it.

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Graz is surely more medieval than Vienna, but it has different face than Prague. It's in another region, it's german speaking city, so it has his own architecture.
So what? I think you overestimate the significance of language borders. Architecture has been always something present in larger European region context. Cities in all the central European countries which share a common history have lots of architectural similarities. I don't say they are identical, that would be too simplistic, but I hope you understand what I mean. Bohemia was no grand exception back then in the Holy Roman Empire.

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You would search for such houses in Prague with no effect, it's typical Austrian city. ...
Do you really think you could not find architecture like this in Austria?



Btw, isn't it annoying how those rectangular windows repeat themselves over and over again?
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Old August 24th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #813
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It's look great. Loved the church.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #814
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Kokpit: If you'd have taken a closer look at the buildings you quoted to call them "commie-like" because of the 'undiversified, monotounous' windows and the loads of uniform dormers - you'd recognize that quite the opposite is the case.

Different window shapes, decent ornaments, diverse dormers and tasteful details - even in the first part that was finished at the Neumarkt (which rather lacked some quality compared to the later ones):

[IMG]http://i35.************/wk1lk5.jpg[/IMG]
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #815
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Dresden city centre will never have qualities of Zittau and Görlitz. However, it's great to see it works. I wonder if Königsberg will be reconstructed in the same way

In the 80's, one side of Altstadt sq (today it's Benes sq) in Reichenberg was completely rebuilt, and some old houses were replaced by replicas - very bad replicas, was said. Now it is quite ok I think.. not ok, it's much better. Like in Dresden. From the ruins it is recovering its former glory. Amazing. Just take a look, and say - which are the old and which are the new? he?


Schwarzenberg - yes, communists and socialists had something against him in the past. Their agenda is full of false nationalism and cheap populism, that's why. In fact, Schwarzenberg is the most popular czech politician. He should be elected as new King of Bohemia imo.

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Old August 25th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #816
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Amazing. Just take a look, and say - which are the old and which are the new? he?
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2...d1c81e8ff8.jpg
those with dormers must be new...
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Schwarzenberg - yes, communists and socialists had something against him in the past. Their agenda is full of false nationalism and cheap populism, that's why. In fact, Schwarzenberg is the most popular czech politician. He should be elected as new King of Bohemia imo.
Nationalism is domain of rather right-wing parties (ODS). I have nothing against him, he seems at least not to be corrupted as most members of our current right-center gov, but he's quite incapable imo.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 09:34 AM   #817
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Kokpit: If you'd have taken a closer look at the buildings you quoted to call them "commie-like" because of the 'undiversified, monotounous' windows and the loads of uniform dormers - you'd recognize that quite the opposite is the case.

Different window shapes, decent ornaments, diverse dormers and tasteful details - even in the first part that was finished at the Neumarkt (which rather lacked some quality compared to the later ones):

http://i35.************/wk1lk5.jpg
Your picture just prove my statement, it looks monotonous. These houses lack some wow effect - and human scale, they are too "blocky". Window motif is still the same

But the worse are those dormers...

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Old August 25th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #818
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But Schwarzenberg has no Austrian citizenship at all. In California they seem to have no problem with a governor with Austrian citizenship btw, but maybe thats one of the good sides specific to the US. Me personally I would not have a problem with ministers who has dual citizenships, especially if both are European. That sounds rather like a advantage than a disadvantage.
In fact he has Swiss and Czech citizenship. Some might find it as a problem for foreigner minister, but most of people don't mind I think. I was just routine game for opposition to find any problem in government.

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Whatever.
The point is they were brutally expelled from their own homeland. Not that they were holy themselves, but it was a crime against humanity as well. I am however not someone who will stick to this for eternity, my position is that all sides should stand to the crimes they committed and then together get over it by looking into a future, a common European future where those old feuds should have no place anymore.
Well, resettelement was caused by WW2 and approved at Potsdam conference. It was not nice but I'm quite convinced it was good for both sides in the end. 90% of Sudeten Germans voted for NSDAP in 1938 and were responsible Nazis took over Czechoslovakia. It's not like they were all Nazis, they just want to Czechoslovakia do not exist. And they succeeded. After the war, it was impossible to live together any more. It's sad but true. And it was not crime, because it was legal.

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The point is that not every German speaking Bohemian who could not prove to be an Antinazi was a Nazi. The basic principle here, being guilty until proving the innocence is fundamentally against human rights. Has the Czech Republic excused already for that?
Its like saying that every Czech who can not prove that he actively stood up against that murderous ethnic cleansing is a criminal. That would be highly unjust as well. Do you understand my point of view?
What "murderous ethnic cleansing" do you mean? It was resettlement approved by all victorious states. Following your logic, you could consider war reparations as illegal or against human rights too. We were not happy to resettle millions of our citizens, but we could not do otherwise after the hell of WW2.

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I think you overestimate the significance of language borders. Architecture has been always something present in larger European region context. Cities in all the central European countries which share a common history have lots of architectural similarities. I don't say they are identical, that would be too simplistic, but I hope you understand what I mean. Bohemia was no grand exception back then in the Holy Roman Empire.
All cities in central europe region share similarities, but my point is if you show me picture of unknown city in Austria and unknown city in Czech Rep, I will be able to distinguish them. E.g. Graz is hundred kms far away from CZ-A borders, so it's no wonder it will looks bit different than Bohemian or Moravian cities. There are differences even within one country or region.

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Do you really think you could not find architecture like this in Austria?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Mal_Strana.jpg
Such style is all over the Europe, what differs are details. But I'm sure in Prague (or Czech Rep) are places you can't see in Austria, and vice versa.
In Malá Strana district, there are more unique places than the street on your picture. BTW mind the diverstity of the style. It's not about square windows, just mind they all don't have similar shape.
What about such streets in Old Town? That is typical Prague Old Town.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 11:15 AM   #819
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Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
you are second one beefing about the parking lot. However I'm talking about buildings.
You were talking about busy square, shops and various houses. All of them can be found on the Dresden Neumarkt.

And "human scale", well that probably depends on the personal perspective. Someone grown up in a village might be overwhelmed by Dresdends grand buildings while someone from New York might find them just cute.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 01:52 PM   #820
kokpit
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Everything is in the eye of beholder. I don't find these building neither grand nor cute. I feel cold watching them.
http://i35.************/wk1lk5.jpg
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