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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:11 PM   #821
Kevlargeist
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Originally Posted by kokpit View Post
Graz is surely more medieval than Vienna, but it has different face than Prague. It's in another region, it's german speaking city, so it has his own architecture. You would search for such houses in Prague with no effect, it's typical Austrian city. Buildings in Bohemians cities looks different.
Wasn't Prague a largely German-speaking city for a good period of time? Surely that had its impact.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:19 PM   #822
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Proximity and language do both have a considerable impact. Places like Bautzen look similar to cities across the border in Bohemia while they have little to nothing in common with cities in say Baden-Württemberg. When looking at pics of places like Bratislava, Ljubljana and Prague, I always feel that there is a certain k.u.k.-look to them. Interestingly enough it appears to be especially profound when it comes to windows. I guess they always used 2 rows of windows, with the outer one being right alongside the facade (you guys understanding what I'm trying to say?). I don't really feel like that look can be found in too many other places.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:23 PM   #823
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^ Interesting, never realized it that way. Could you illustrate this?
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:27 PM   #824
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Windows on the right:



I don't know, maybe this can be found in other places as well but this kind of "window style" has always appeared "k.u.k.-anesque" to me.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 06:21 PM   #825
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^ Ok, I see what you mean. Well, talkin about it, this is something I also noticed when walking Wien after seeing Prag and Pilsen.
This barely can be found in German architecture. Apart from the Sorbe region (Bautzen,..) perhaps?!
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Old August 25th, 2008, 06:25 PM   #826
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Update

Anyway, time to get back to Neumarkt!


Quartier V - Köhlersches Haus got some paintjob





AdF 17 (An der Frauenkirche) in the Rampische Gasse - let's take a step inside!

Cross vault:


Dining area of the Augustiner brewery inside:


Krellbrunnen (fountain)


Amazing courtyard





Rampische Straße 29:
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Old August 25th, 2008, 06:45 PM   #827
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Well, resettelement was caused by WW2 and approved at Potsdam conference. It was not nice but I'm quite convinced it was good for both sides in the end. 90% of Sudeten Germans voted for NSDAP in 1938 and were responsible Nazis took over Czechoslovakia. It's not like they were all Nazis, they just want to Czechoslovakia do not exist. And they succeeded. After the war, it was impossible to live together any more. It's sad but true. And it was not crime, because it was legal.
You evade my point that calling people guilty (of being Nazis or the lack of being antinazis whatever) and punishing them for it (with ethnic cleansing with significant lethality rates) on the mere basis of their ethnicity is a crime against humanity. No matter what your law said, after all you created a tailor made law just for that. I mean you would be surprised (or not) what had been "legal" under German law, still most of would agree on calling much of it crime against humanity. Human rights stand above law, and the way the ethnic cleansing was conducted in Bohemia and Moravia was pretty clear in violation to them. The ethnic cleansing was not "caused" by WWII, it was legitimized by it. Thats a difference. Saying so would mean that crimes against humanity are deterministic and can't be prevented because they are inevitably "caused".
Btw, just to remind you, the Czech Republic was not exactly nice to the massive German speaking minority after the collapse of the monarchy. If you want you can compare how the monarchy treated the Czech speaking people and how the interwar Czech R. treated the German speakers: Maybe I err but I believe the latter treated the other side worse.

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What "murderous ethnic cleansing" do you mean? It was resettlement approved by all victorious states. Following your logic, you could consider war reparations as illegal or against human rights too. We were not happy to resettle millions of our citizens, but we could not do otherwise after the hell of WW2.
I give a f*** who "approved" it. The allieds were no saints either, even though I am surprised how the American President whose country just two decades before declared the self determination of people could approve the ethnic cleansing of the majority people of a large regions. If its true the US acted that way that does not improve my picture of the US.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime for the International Criminal Court. If the Czech Rerpublic would do it nowadays and not punish the responsibles (eg because its national laws make it legal). The would have to fear to face the ICC for that "crime against humanity, no matter who "approved it. Those "approving it would make themselves partially guilty at best, but don't add legitimity to this crime against humanity.

The "wild expulsions" taking place in Czechoslovakia were deliberately provoked by leading Czech statesmen, they fostered Czech hatred while knowing quite well what they cause by that, not to forget that it was partially assisted by the official czech army. They can't flee from there responsibility. Several thousand people were killed by those wild expulsions alone. Thise are the violent deaths, add the many more due to hunger etc.

The Benes decree is despiceable alone for the fact that it creates the legal construct of a "collective´" crime, where its principally enough to belong to a certain ethnicity in order to be guilty.

The conditions of the "organized transfer" were hardly fair or humane either. People were only aloud to carry rather limited laggage with them for example and lost all they possessed.

I call the entire period murderous as well because if several incidents took place where many German speakers died because of nothing more than being guilty of belonging to a certain ethnicity. Also the internment camps were everything else than nice, for example 15.000 children below 15 had the joy to be imprisoned there, also many very old peole were. In fact the conditions in those camps were terrible. Rapes, beats, extremely cramped conditions, ... about 10000 people died in those camps from 1945 to 1948.

Do I have to continue the list?

Quote:
All cities in central europe region share similarities, but my point is if you show me picture of unknown city in Austria and unknown city in Czech Rep, I will be able to distinguish them. E.g. Graz is hundred kms far away from CZ-A borders, so it's no wonder it will looks bit different than Bohemian or Moravian cities. There are differences even within one country or region.
Maybe they share so many similarities because they belonged for quite a while to a common country? I never claimed cities look identical, but their common features are large in number.

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Such style is all over the Europe, what differs are details.
Not necessarily all over Europe, nordic architecture is quite different even though it shares common European features of course.

Quote:
But I'm sure in Prague (or Czech Rep) are places you can't see in Austria, and vice versa.
In Malá Strana district, there are more unique places than the street on your picture. BTW mind the diverstity of the style. It's not about square windows, just mind they all don't have similar shape.
What about such streets in Old Town? That is typical Prague Old Town.
...
You say thats a picture of the Prague old town. I would have thought it would look more medieval. Actually it rweminds me extremely at certain streets in the inner city of Vienna.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 01:00 AM   #828
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You evade my point that calling people guilty (of being Nazis or the lack of being antinazis whatever) and punishing them for it (with ethnic cleansing with significant lethality rates) on the mere basis of their ethnicity is a crime against humanity. No matter what your law said, after all you created a tailor made law just for that. I mean you would be surprised (or not) what had been "legal" under German law, still most of would agree on calling much of it crime against humanity. Human rights stand above law, and the way the ethnic cleansing was conducted in Bohemia and Moravia was pretty clear in violation to them. The ethnic cleansing was not "caused" by WWII, it was legitimized by it. Thats a difference. Saying so would mean that crimes against humanity are deterministic and can't be prevented because they are inevitably "caused".
Oh dear. You, Germans, gave rise to the hell of WW2 and seem like many things are not absolutely clear to you. Well, for the mankind, you luckily lost. According to you, reparations, shift of German borders hundreds kilometres west and resettlement of German citizens are all "crimes against humanity". Well, they are not. You might find paying reparations or being resettled as unjust, but that's how the things are. They were settled at Potsdam conference whether you like it or not. That's the international law and it is valid. You are simple revisionist and cry somebody has hurt you. You seem to completely forgot about what was the causation of the Potsdam conference.
On the other hand, it's true there were excesses caused by Czechs on German civilians after the 1945. The problem is that after the May 1945, the situation was quite chaotic and in borderland was quite kind of anarchy. We are always ready to apologize for all that crimes (about 18 000 people died, 6 thousand of them being murdered during resettlement) caused by Czechs, partizans, Russian soldiers and others on area of at that time Czechoslovakia. And we will apologize again and again. It's really nothing to be proud of.
Murder is always crime, resettlement as a part of postwar law is not.

Quote:
Btw, just to remind you, the Czech Republic was not exactly nice to the massive German speaking minority after the collapse of the monarchy. If you want you can compare how the monarchy treated the Czech speaking people and how the interwar Czech R. treated the German speakers: Maybe I err but I believe the latter treated the other side worse.
This is pathetic. How exactly wasn't Czechoslovakia nice to Sudetengermans? Just to remind you, Austria was absolutist monarchy, while Czechoslovakia was democratic country. Sudetengermans were even ministers in Czechoslovak government. How can you explain that Sudetengerman social democrats were voting against Munich agreement (with no effect of course) and were ready to defend this "bad" Czechoslovakia against the Third Reich in 1938? Yes, you "believe" in your own myths... and you like them.
Now it's quite useless to tell you how Sudetengermans behave to Czechs in borderland after 1938. Czechs were resettled too btw, with no reason, they were just untermenschen.

Quote:
I give a f*** who "approved" it. The allieds were no saints either, even though I am surprised how the American President whose country just two decades before declared the self determination of people could approve the ethnic cleansing of the majority people of a large regions.
Yes, it must be great surprise for Austrian. May be Austrians live in another world. Was WW2 in Austria, anyway? So many surprised Austrians, none of them understand what happend after 1945, till then everything goes so well and suddenly... even American President went mad.

Quote:
Ethnic cleansing is a crime for the International Criminal Court. If the Czech Rerpublic would do it nowadays and not punish the responsibles (eg because its national laws make it legal). The would have to fear to face the ICC for that "crime against humanity, no matter who "approved it. Those "approving it would make themselves partially guilty at best, but don't add legitimity to this crime against humanity.
Well, the best thing you can do is go and take all victorious countries to do court. Reparations, resettlement and shifting of borders must be taken back.

Quote:
The "wild expulsions" taking place in Czechoslovakia were deliberately provoked by leading Czech statesmen, they fostered Czech hatred while knowing quite well what they cause by that, not to forget that it was partially assisted by the official czech army. They can't flee from there responsibility. Several thousand people were killed by those wild expulsions alone. Thise are the violent deaths, add the many more due to hunger etc.
Which Czech statesman urge Czechs to murder Germans? Well, I'm surprised what kind of myths are still exist in Austria...
During and after the war, there was quite a lot hatred towards Germans. For you, it must be great surprise I guess. Sure there were criminals abusing chaotic situation, murdering and ripping off innocent people in borderland, where was practically no police and law yet. We can do nothing but apologize, again.

Quote:
The Benes decree is despiceable alone for the fact that it creates the legal construct of a "collective´" crime, where its principally enough to belong to a certain ethnicity in order to be guilty.
Same goes for reparations and shifting of borders then. It's such an unjust.

Quote:
The conditions of the "organized transfer" were hardly fair or humane either. People were only aloud to carry rather limited laggage with them for example and lost all they possessed.
Yes, moving of houses is quite difficult. But yes, it was sad. They lived here hundreds years and were forced to leave forever. They were just abused by Nazis. However many of them realized they knowingly caused smash of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Quote:
Also the internment camps were everything else than nice, for example 15.000 children below 15 had the joy to be imprisoned there, also many very old peole were. In fact the conditions in those camps were terrible. Rapes, beats, extremely cramped conditions, ... about 10000 people died in those camps from 1945 to 1948.
Your sources?

Quote:
You say thats a picture of the Prague old town. I would have thought it would look more medieval. Actually it rweminds me extremely at certain streets in the inner city of Vienna.
When being in Vienna, I've never saw streets like that.

Last edited by kokpit; August 26th, 2008 at 01:06 AM.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 09:20 AM   #829
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Can you please keep this political crap out of this thread. Its about Dresden Neumarkt and not about germans in Czech Republic after WW2.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #830
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Just ignore that. But yes, we're way offtopic, I didn't start that though.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #831
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Entrance to Köhler'sches Haus:





Facade of the building:







Jeweler (Quartier III):



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Old August 26th, 2008, 05:18 PM   #832
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Can you please keep this political crap out of this thread. Its about Dresden Neumarkt and not about germans in Czech Republic after WW2.
Sorry for getting rather OT, I'll get back on track again.
Just one tiny OT thing to kokpit: I am not German.

Quote:
When being in Vienna, I've never saw streets like that.
I guess I have been bit more often in the 1st district than you...



But back to Dresden I think that Köhlersche Hausd will be a highlight of the Neumaskt. What Ih not fully understood so far is how they want to firt in the Hotel Rom exactly, especially with the commieblocks next to it. Won't it look pretty wrong placed in terms of abrupt endings of streets etc?
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #833
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I guess I have been bit more often in the 1st district than you...
You could send some photo of such street then, thanks in advance
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:27 AM   #834
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What did Neumarkt look like just before the reconstruction project began? What kind of buildings (if any) were in the space taken up by the reconstructed buildings? Were they ugly commie buildings that had to be demolished to make room for the new ones?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #835
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...and to simply address quickly the OT conversation thats been going on, we have a saying in English (that I'm not sure if they teach to those that learn English in a classroom but aren't native speakers) that goes, "two wrongs don't make a right" (whether its officially sanctioned or not).
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Old August 27th, 2008, 01:27 AM   #836
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Amazing...just amazing! Thanks again for the picture updates!

@Darryl:
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Neumarkt in the 1960s

image hosted on flickr
There was not much! I think the only building which has been demolished was an ugly police commie building but I don't have a picture of it.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 01:45 AM   #837
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Neumarkt in 1903:



Before 1945:

image hosted on flickr


Old Police HQ:

image hosted on flickr


Some general pics:

Quartier III

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


The old (or rather new/GDR) police HQ was located where you can see that bright, white wall:

image hosted on flickr


My favorite...Quartier II

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Hotel de Saxe

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Old August 27th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #838
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3 years of excellence.

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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:53 PM   #839
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this picture rulez!
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:21 PM   #840
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Are there plans to extend the reconstructions ?
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