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Old July 21st, 2010, 08:22 PM   #1681
erbse
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As an addition: Quartier III-2 before WW2 seen from above

With Palais Hoym highlighted
[IMG]http://i26.************/1tq6b7.jpg[/IMG]
Source

Rampische Strasse, seen from the Frauenkirche - Quartier III-2 with Palais Hoym to the right
[IMG]http://i30.************/2s92mnk.jpg[/IMG]
Source
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Old July 21st, 2010, 08:44 PM   #1682
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I see.

Apart from Neumarkt is anything else going to be rebuilt? Theres a ruin on Tzschirnerplatz/Schiessgasse (at least it is visible on bing maps), whats going to happen to it?

In general it seems theres helluva lot of empty sites around the historic centre, which is kind of shame.

Oh and Kulturpalast needs to go!
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Old July 21st, 2010, 09:03 PM   #1683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Apart from Neumarkt is anything else going to be rebuilt?
Looks like we're talking about this every 2 pages or something

There are reconstructions possible for Neustädter Markt, but nothing certain so far.

The baroque Neustadt City Hall (Neustädter Rathaus) would be favourable of course:

Wiki


Wiki


But it rather looks like modernists are doing their dump in this area.
Have a look at some of the previous pages in this thread (search for Hauptstraße 5 - 7, the German thread may help as well).

Read more here: http://translate.google.de/translate...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8
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Old July 21st, 2010, 09:10 PM   #1684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Theres a ruin on Tzschirnerplatz/Schiessgasse (at least it is visible on bing maps), whats going to happen to it?
That used to be the ruin of the Kurländer Palais, at the end of Rampische Strasse.

In 2006:

Wiki

Today it's reconstructed Bing Maps Aerials are really old, you shouldn't count on those.






Source: http://bausituation-dresden.blogspot...4nder%20Palais


Already pretty lively at night.
image hosted on flickr

flickr
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Old July 21st, 2010, 09:24 PM   #1685
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Erbse?
What are they fixing at Hauptbahnhof? There's no thread and the Dresden forum is sleeping..
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Old July 21st, 2010, 09:25 PM   #1686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
In general it seems theres helluva lot of empty sites around the historic centre, which is kind of shame.
True. But I rather think it's a fortune, not a shame.
Just imagine they would have build it all up with crappy commieblocks in GDR times or lame huge investor's dump after the fall of the iron curtain. We now have the chance to reconstruct buildings on empty spaces. Doesn't look like the Dresden council wants it that way, but we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Oh and Kulturpalast needs to go!
No doubt. But they'll renovate it and it will be hidden behind reconstructed buildings, so it's kinda ok.



That's what initially was planned by some Saxonian investor (Sachsenbau Chemnitz) and the architect Hans Kollhoff for the Kulturpalast area, but the city of Dresden didn't approve it: Read the whole story here!

They planned reconstructions along with a further use of the Kulturpalast, but new facades and a shopping gallery, like those you know from cities like Naples or Milano.

Visualisations:

Western aspect of the initially planned complex (architect: Hans Kollhoff)
[IMG]http://i32.************/e0q1r9.jpg[/IMG]
Source

The new gallery building covering the old Kulturpalast (by Hans Kollhoff), seen from the Altmarkt:
[IMG]http://i31.************/2ajnhts.jpg[/IMG]
Source

Inside the shopping gallery
[IMG]http://i25.************/jtp5bt.jpg[/IMG]
Source



That way it would really compliment the Stalinist buildings on the opposite at Altmarkt.
But unfortunately it's probably not gonna happen this way.
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Old July 21st, 2010, 11:08 PM   #1687
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Heritage cities seem to have a problem with contemporary architecture and in general they just seem a little bit confused ; never sure of what they want to be - ever evolving cities or pretty but dead museums.

It is the same here in the UK ; Bath rejected a rather wonderful scheme that would have saved derelict historic warehouse. Reasoning being that a glass extension would somehow ruin and be out of character to the rest of Bath. Derelict warehouse, it seems, fits in better. Ironically the proposal was outside historic centre..... It seems change averse councils use UNESCO as a justification for their dullness.

Ironically such stuffy old dinosaurs miss the point completely - if people such as them existed in the past, neither Dresden nor Bath would exist today ('sorry but that Baroque palace will totally ruin character of this filthy, stinking, timber-framed shack filled hole').
Still situation in Dresden is not so bad ; the city has some truly fantastic modern buildings (UFA-Palast, New Synagogue etc) and I think it should be allowed to be what it always has been - a centre for development of contemporary architecture.
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 02:08 AM   #1688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Heritage cities seem to have a problem with contemporary architecture and in general they just seem a little bit confused ; never sure of what they want to be - ever evolving cities or pretty but dead museums.

It is the same here in the UK ; Bath rejected a rather wonderful scheme that would have saved derelict historic warehouse. Reasoning being that a glass extension would somehow ruin and be out of character to the rest of Bath. Derelict warehouse, it seems, fits in better. Ironically the proposal was outside historic centre..... It seems change averse councils use UNESCO as a justification for their dullness.

Ironically such stuffy old dinosaurs miss the point completely - if people such as them existed in the past, neither Dresden nor Bath would exist today ('sorry but that Baroque palace will totally ruin character of this filthy, stinking, timber-framed shack filled hole').
Still situation in Dresden is not so bad ; the city has some truly fantastic modern buildings (UFA-Palast, New Synagogue etc) and I think it should be allowed to be what it always has been - a centre for development of contemporary architecture.
Contemporary architecture is, 99% of the time, utterly repellent. Why do you think people want Dresden back as it was? It's nothing more than the total FAILURE of modernism in architecture. Same with modernism in all the arts, from music to painting including architecture: people don't want it!They don't want some discordant, serial-inspired wailing. People never DID want Brutalist crap that was shoved into the landscape. I mean look at this thing by Le Corbusier: I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire



http://theurbanearth.wordpress.com/2...sier-le-grand/

The fact is that modernism shot itself in the foot the moment it decided that it didn't need any continuity with the past. Whoever thought a flat roof on a concrete box was anything other than hideous?? I'd knock it all down if I had my way. Every last squat concrete tower block. Modernist architects (and those that employed them) should be utterly ashamed at what they've done to our urban landscapes over the last 60 years.

And you speak of the UK, and in my experience the UK has had a completely philistine attitude towards all the arts and culture in general for centuries. Bath is a rare exception in being a UK city worthy to stand next to the great cities of Europe. The reason the UK didn't 'reconstruct' much after the war is because there was very little left worth reconstructing. (Btw, apart from Bath what other 'Heritage Cities' would you say were in the UK? I can think of York, Lincoln, Warwick and bits of Norwich).
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Last edited by wolfpaw; July 22nd, 2010 at 02:13 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 02:36 AM   #1689
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You seem to equate modernism with tower blocks, which is very unfair indeed. Architects who design skyscrapers, we are all drooling over on here, without exception call themselves modernists. If you do not want their buildings then youre on the wrong site. However people like their work. Thats why they get commissions all over the World. That is why they are star architects who win awards. Incidentally works of the likes of Warhol, Pollock, Picasso etc sell for millions aswell. Something that is hated does not fetch prices that high.

The post-war crap must be seen in the context of post-War austerity. Modernism offered a quick and cheap way to rebuild broken Europe, flawed ideologies of universal equality also had a part to play. However tower-blocks and sink estates is not what modernism is all about. It is about purity of form, form follows function, this new type of thinking can be seen in universally loved iron architecture of the Victorian age - train sheds and greenhouses. As they showed less can be beautiful. There are plenty of fantastic pieces of modernist architecture out there and Unité d'Habitation is one of them. Indeed Unité d'Habitation is very popular with its residents and is now mainly occupied by middle-class professionals. Please explain this. If people dont want it how come they like it? It is you who dont want it.

What do you want our cities to be? Museums? Sure museums are cool, but they are museums and the problem with them is that in this brave new World which is increasingly being dominated by uber-modern Asian giants is very, very difficult to compete. You cant improve anything, you cant build new housing because its out of character, or too tall, or whatever. You cant widen the roads or build light rail, because of the exactly the same reason. Views, character, heritage, NIMBYism.
Im not uber-modernist philistine. I love old architecture, but I also believe that old and new can co-exist in peace and indeed enhance each other. Examples include deconstructivist fire escape on the Landhaus in Dresden and this in London among many, many others -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dhedwar...04523/sizes/l/

Look at the above and answer me this, what would you rather have - a brave development and juxtaposition of styles or sad compromise you can see in the background? Compromise is precisely what NIMBYism and hatred of modern achieves. Do you want that? Or do you want brave, and exciting cities? I know which I want.
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 04:03 PM   #1690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
The post-war crap must be seen in the context of post-War austerity. Modernism offered a quick and cheap way to rebuild broken Europe, flawed ideologies of universal equality also had a part to play. However tower-blocks and sink estates is not what modernism is all about.
Sorry but I disagree completely. Can you tell me why in the 50s, 60s and 70s so much architecture that was untouched by the war was demolished in order to build concrete blocks? It was nothing to do with post-war austerity and everything to do with the feeling that post-war crap was better than what came before it.

In the late 1970s, in Exeter, some of the last remaining 15th century merchant's houses were demolished in order to build a shopping centre.

Before:


After:


It was nothing to do with post-war austerity, and you wonder why a lot of people despise modernism? I despise it. I despise the sheer arrogance of it, the fact that it came along and tore up the past but most of all I despise the fact that it's so ugly. It is willfully dehumanising.
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 05:55 PM   #1691
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^ Totally agree with you on this, pal. But please stick to Dresden here, even if there's a lot to say about architectural histry and further circumstances - there are other places to discuss these issues. I might move some posts. Or you guys feel free to open a new thread.

Cordial thanks for the attention.
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 06:22 PM   #1692
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You completely ignore what Ive said and dont even try to stop for a moment and at least think about it.

What was built in the post war era was not modernism, but sorry Argos type of architecture that wasnt even designed by architects, but by a bunch of beaurocrats working for broke loony councils. Councils who also happened to be socialist, so not surprisingly then, certain aspects of modernism appealed to them, however there was no money to commission proper architects to design one off quality buildings, in many cases too, it was much cheaper to demolish historic buildings (by that time they were in truly, truly sorry state) than to restore them. It is also worth remembering that huge number of houses were destroyed or damaged during the war and the homeless had to be rehoused somewhere somehow and fast.

So, it all had to do with post-war austerity as well as flawed ideologies (socialism) and absolutely nothing with modernism which, while yes was plain and mathematical, did nonetheless said that new buildings should be large, bright and airy. Or in other words huge windows and lots of space. Does that Primark building you posted fit the bill? No it doesnt. Unité d'Habitation does, however, as does this one The Homewood in Esher, Surrey (built in the 1920) -

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


I would much rather live in this building than some sorry and cramped Victorian terrace. Thats modernism and as I already proved it is very popular indeed.

Heres a few more pictures of modern modernism (), just for you. They are beautiful arent they?

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old July 22nd, 2010, 06:25 PM   #1693
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I agree that the post war drive to replace heritage buildings with modern structures was pervasive around the globe and was not necessarily due to austerity and WWII ruins.

however, that was the situation in Dresden. I know a woman who survived the holocaust in Dresden and for years lived without a private home, limited plumbing, no kitchen, very little heat in the winter, etc. When the new cement blocks were completed and opened for occupancy, these people who suffered so greatly were overjoyed to have real bathrooms, kitchens, heat and a place to sleep without getting rained on. Now that the economies are able to fix the emergency measures that often resulted in the cement block structures, we need to support the efforts to do so.

That said, how did the new building which I believe is a hotel, next to the Kreuz Kirche ever get approved? it looks HORRIBLE!
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Old July 23rd, 2010, 12:23 AM   #1694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Building on very right is utter crap. People dislike this kind of modernism, which is uncreative (Just like dull hotel in Dresden). If you want to build modern, build creatively and brave. Just like this:

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Old July 23rd, 2010, 05:00 PM   #1695
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on the street level, Dancing house is ultimate crap.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 07:30 PM   #1696
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I see youve all discovered elgreco, he wont listen to any of your arguments and will disrupt your thread so i would just not answer him if i was you on this topic of historical reconstruction vs modern architecture.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #1697
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Are you following me round the forum because you love me? Im not interested so stop derailing threads.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #1698
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The debate is good. I disagree with much of the opionions of El Greco, but I like his style of presenting his opinion and not offended by it.

Best to keep the discussion going in hopes of demonstrating reasons why the historic architecture and designs are well worth preserving and rebuilding rather than turn him away with only his own ideas to ponder!
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Old July 25th, 2010, 02:21 AM   #1699
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I do think that historic architecture is worth preserving, I also support rebuilding of lost treasures. Indeed I wish we did more of it!

However, perhaps not surprisingly, I like modern architecture too and I believe modern and historic can live in harmony (see Landhaus and that building in London that I posted).

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Old July 25th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #1700
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Quote:
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I would much rather live in this building than some sorry and cramped Victorian terrace. Thats modernism and as I already proved it is very popular indeed.

Heres a few more pictures of modern modernism (), just for you. They are beautiful arent they?

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
Those are modern but they are not modernism as they follow a traditional street pattern.
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