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Old October 29th, 2010, 01:00 PM   #1901
3SPIRES
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Wow, that national mentality really sucks. Yet the same populace adores the royal family. Go figure.

Much of the same attitude exists in the U.S. The glorious city centers of pre 20th century america are all but gone, given to the modernist skyscrapers and glass & steel plazas.

Such thinking makes the bombing of dresden other historic cities in WWII even more of a tragedy.
Absolute rubbish.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 01:47 PM   #1902
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Well, Euston Arch excluded, (plans for the reconstruction of which have been floating around for years), YES, they are! I've always maintained that before World War Two the UK had hardly any cities that were of the same architectural status as the great historic cities of Europe. In the 20th century the UK never had a Frankfurt or Nuremberg, or Dresden, or a Florence or Rome. The Industrial Revolution and the bloody Victorians destroyed most of it, plus over here we used to build over city centres rather than spreading outwards leaving a historic core intact. The one city over here that I think is the counterpart to the great architectural cities of pre-war continental Europe is Bath, and maybe York. Apart from a few exceptions, after WW2 almost nothing over here was reconstructed. Maybe I'm just biased as the place where I live has been almost totally rebuilt over the last 100 years. I think for the UK, and perhaps in other countries too, the idea of reconstructing is seen as admitting to the failure of Modernism. It's as though they think 'no, we must go forwards, even if the result is horrible, we must go fowards!'.

The UK never had a Dresden to reconstruct, but if it did have, and if it had been bombed in WW2 then I don't think any of it would've been reconstructed, either after the war or decades later.
I agree about UK cities generally being non-descript, and repeatedly built over. A large portion of Liverpool's historic core was completely lost in the Blitz. Block after block of really high quality Architecture, most of it Georgian/Early-Victorian was destroyed. There is a very famous photo of Victoria Square with just the monument still standing with all around flattened. The biggest loss was probably the Customs House which was one of, if not the largest buildings in the city centre. A massive domed neo-classical job that matched St George's Hall for its grandeur. The irony was that it wasn't beyond redemption with much of its structure intact, but the city planners had big ideas for its location and knocked it down in the 50's. The grand plans were never realised, and the site lay practically bare until Liverpool one was built....... A rebuilt customs house would've been perfect to house much of what "Liverpool one" offers..... a missed opportunity to reclaim our history, and signify the city's rebirth. In a way the city's general post war decline stiffled some of the plans to rip the city centre apart (though not all), and much is still in place. The georgian and rope walks quarters are I believe a match for Bath in terms of quality and quantity, which is amazing as the majority of this building type has been lost in the city. So it's hard to imagine what the place was like in its heyday.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #1903
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Interesting how those making decisons for urban areas choose to destroy the classic, historic structures and replace with the garbage noted in this discussion. Yet, nowhere can one find souvenir replicas of the new cityscapes nor does one ever see people setting up city/village displays under their Christmas trees of gray blocks of buildings with no character. Even DisneyWorld main attraction is "main street" and the classic international area of historic architecture...not steel and glass boxes.
So, it seems obvious that the desire of most people is to have at least a majority of pleasing, historically designed buildings, yet the decision makers continue to do the opposite of what people want.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 06:39 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Interesting how those making decisons for urban areas choose to destroy the classic, historic structures and replace with the garbage noted in this discussion. Yet, nowhere can one find souvenir replicas of the new cityscapes nor does one ever see people setting up city/village displays under their Christmas trees of gray blocks of buildings with no character. Even DisneyWorld main attraction is "main street" and the classic international area of historic architecture...not steel and glass boxes.
So, it seems obvious that the desire of most people is to have at least a majority of pleasing, historically designed buildings, yet the decision makers continue to do the opposite of what people want.
but possibly the realitiy is another. i think during christmas time, people want comfortbale architecture, yes, but for the rest they want this modern styl, crap, shit. what you can see like cologne, kassel and in some way frankfurt.

especialy the younger generation.

if i am right, i remember a polish guy suggested sometime ago in this forum to do a "german-polish-friendship-fond" german give money to poland and poland give money to germany, so each can rebuild, reconstruct historic buildings.

a good idea in theory, but in praxis not, because if you would aks people in germany and in poland, if they should spend the money to rebuild old buildings or a new store, mall, shopcenter, i am sure, the most would choose the mall...

sadly reality. i hope i am wrong, but i don't think so.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #1905
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Probably true, but I still think there is a major irony in how people seek the classic/historical architecture to visually enjoy, photograph, and display models of, yet the builders create the opposite.

but the main key reason why we get the crap is the desire of city planners to oogle over "famous" architects like Daniel Libeskind whose temperment demands he be allowed to do whatever he wants to create havoc on the cityscapes.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #1906
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i dont know where this behavior comes from. people alyways think everything has to be mordern, futuristic and they belive this is so much better than the old crap. USA is also famous for it's skycrapers. Don't get me wrong, i like them too, but i think skycrapers and old buildings are completey different, not to compare. heck, people favor this new stuff too much. "err, old, no. new, modern, cool yeah!"

it had to be a similar thinking why west and east germayn builded so much crapstyle.

east germany for ideologic reason and west germany because they need space for new buildings. well, i know, easy building, fast and much for the bomebd out germans in the cities. first home, then charming style.

but the thing is, west german authorities blew up so much. often intact or little to middle damaged buildings without any serious reason, but just to destroy old and build new.

that let you think, they were happy that the allies bomebd so much. heck, i guess they would had loved to seen the allies would had bombed much much more on germany, so that they could had build even more 1950's crap.

i know this is a stupid tought, but if you look, what they destroyed, sometimes i don't understand.

i made a thread about that, some months ago in the german forum.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #1907
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but the thing is, west german authorities blew up so much. often intact or little to middle damaged buildings without any serious reason, but just to destroy old and build new.

that let you think, they were happy that the allies bomebd so much. heck, i guess they would had loved to seen the allies would had bombed much much more on germany, so that they could had build even more 1950's crap.

i know this is a stupid tought, but if you look, what they destroyed, sometimes i don't understand.
After the war, the allies "re-edcuated" germany to believe being German was a bad thing and certainly German history was about the worst in human history. What was German was not good, and worthy of scorn. It is no wonder that there were minimal or no attempts by the German people to herald their former times--architecturally or anything else. The mentality of most germans of the era was 'let's clear the slate and start over' and part of that was looking new, modern, international, and 'un-german'.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #1908
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but the thing is, west german authorities blew up so much. often intact or little to middle damaged buildings without any serious reason, but just to destroy old and build new.

that let you think, they were happy that the allies bomebd so much. heck, i guess they would had loved to seen the allies would had bombed much much more on germany, so that they could had build even more 1950's crap.

i know this is a stupid tought, but if you look, what they destroyed, sometimes i don't understand.
I think you've hit on something there. I can only talk of the experience at Exeter, but after the war much more was demolished than was actually damaged during the bombing raid, and even semi-damaged buildings of historic importance were cleared away. This happened for two reasons: the City Council wanted to create a homogenous design of buildings that all looked the same and were in the same style rather than having old surviving pre-war buildings sat amongst 1950s-style buildings.

The other big reason behind the decision not to reconstruct historic buildings and to destroy the medieval street plan was because the bombing was seen as an opportunity to get rid of old and cramped medieval areas that made moving around the city difficult, because of the narrow streets. The post-war rebuilding was governed by the desire for clean, new, straight, wide-open spaces and roads rather than a tangle of small streets and alleyways that you couldn't easily drive a car down.

The thing that angers me the most is that the same mistake was often made again and again and again throughout the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. They never seemed to learn the lesson. In Exeter some of the city's last surviving 15th century timber-frame houses were demolished in the mid-1970s to build a shopping centre.

I think the biggest architectural disaster of World War Two was that it coincided with the single most repulsive form of archictecture to appear in Europe within the last 2000 years.

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Old October 30th, 2010, 08:53 AM   #1909
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Yes, i have heared about the re-education, but i think it isn't much known today. And mention that or tlaking about that, you are considered of re-visionistic, if not even neo-nazi.

ok, the germans back than started the war and no bomb would had fallen on any european city if the nazi-government, hitler, wouldn't had orderd the attack on poland.

but it is no doubt, that germans are responsible for the bombings of rotterdam, conventry, the destruction of warsaw, etc and the allies of bombing german cities in revenge or whatever.

but the sad thing is, the nazis start it. i don't mean the war now, no, they started to blew up any buildings what bugged, in their opinion, so that they can build their own crap. and it did not happen only in berlin because of their germania-shit.

The nazis themselfes tought it was a luck, that the cities got such heavily bomebd, because after the german victory, they didn't need to blew up so much, and could build the cities in their nazi-style. Hitler wanted to have huge statues at some borders of it is silly empire.

if i remember right. readed it a while ago in the net. sadly i dont findt it yet.

but at the end of the war, even when hitler knew it finaly, the war was lost he order to destroy and demolish anything industrial what could be usefull for the allies - in germany. but according to Albert Speer, he refused those orders. Just like Hitler orded to destroy Paris (or Florenz?) and the german nazi-commanders of the 2 cities refused the orders aswell.

I have read that the plans for re-building afte the war, were based on nazi-rebuilding-plans.
but on the other hand it is said that Hitler himself wanted, the german cities in their old style and everything, just with larger streets, for the cars.
would make sense since Alber Speer ordered areial photos of the german cities. Another reason, why the nazis wanted to have larger cities, narrow and compact districts, corners, house-blocks are more easy to bomb and destroy, then house which aren't that close together.

The German Airforece bombed the german cities of Anklam, Freiburg im Breisgau and Eberswalde, which were the only german cities, which were bombed by the own airforce, after they fall inot allied hands.

But long before the second world war, the germans showed no mercy to old buildings what their ancestor builded with lots of money and in hard working.

Here the thread i made - german language only
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=912572

but it is now doubed that the worse were done after ww2.

the east german authorities within their ideology blewed up lot of churches
http://www.kirchensprengung.de/
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Old October 30th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #1910
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Apparently the Germans were ordered to blow up that bridge in Florence, but they thought it was too beautiful and disobeyed orders. Even in Italy, they were unkind to old buildings. Look at Milan. Capital of fashion and style, and all their buildings look so effing ugly.
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Old October 31st, 2010, 01:00 AM   #1911
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it is unbelievable how much resistance happend against the rebuilding of the church in dresden. from expensive to revisionistic, like within the rebuilding, germans want to erase the ww2 history, like german guilt never happend this argument came esepcialy from german commnunists.

but it is good they did and possibly the german autorities realized that rebuilding brings tourists and money.

Bute Dresden wasn't Dresden without the church of our laday


http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4...0804020631.jpg
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Old October 31st, 2010, 01:10 AM   #1912
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I think the biggest architectural disaster of World War Two was that it coincided with the single most repulsive form of archictecture to appear in Europe within the last 2000 years.

I couldn't agree more. The sad fact is that I think we might have lost nearly as much had WWII never happened. Obviously it was not important to people to preserve the cities considering the zeal with which they rebuilt everything. Here in the US it is no different. Most cities here had beautiful downtown areas full of ornate Victorian buildings and they are largely destroyed. Things have gotten better-New York has very strict preservation laws-but this was only after terrible losses. I wish so much that there was a good way to educate people and get more of these buildings rebuilt. I'm not saying we should tear down everything modern and make everything look like the late 19th century, but at least get back the really important core areas. Then again, I do think certain cities deserve to be completely restored-Dresden and Nuremberg come to mind. There is no reason other than public opinion and money that this could not happen.
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Old October 31st, 2010, 04:27 AM   #1913
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http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.de/rekoliste.php

http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.de/...e/1/index.html

http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.de/...e/2/index.html
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Old October 31st, 2010, 06:46 PM   #1914
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Rampische Straße:










Quartier VIII:











Source: http://www.bausituation-dresden.com
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:02 PM   #1915
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Any word on when ground will break for the south side of Rampishe Strasse? Last I heard it was pending financing.

Also, whats with Google earth satellite being 3 years behind in Dresden?
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #1916
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I've always maintained that before World War Two the UK had hardly any cities that were of the same architectural status as the great historic cities of Europe. In the 20th century the UK never had a Frankfurt or Nuremberg, or Dresden, or a Florence or Rome. The Industrial Revolution and the bloody Victorians destroyed most of it, plus over here we used to build over city centres rather than spreading outwards leaving a historic core intact.
What? Pre-war London was possibly the greatest architectural adventure in the world. Victorian architecture is spectacular, just look at old photographs of British cities and see for yourself. They were certainly not architecturally inferior. When it comes to historic buildings no German city can compete with Rome or Florence either.

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The one city over here that I think is the counterpart to the great architectural cities of pre-war continental Europe is Bath, and maybe York.
Two very different choices here. Bath is mostly a product of the 18th and 19th centuries while York is 2000 years old and has many medieval streets and buildings. There are many old beautiful cities and towns in Britain such as Edinburgh, Oxford, Cambridge etc. Many of the larger cities are beautiful as well for example Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Newcastle. Not to mention London.

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The UK never had a Dresden to reconstruct, but if it did have, and if it had been bombed in WW2 then I don't think any of it would've been reconstructed, either after the war or decades later.
Well Coventry comes close. Itīs medieval heart was considered one of the finest in Europe. It was heavily damaged in the war and whatever remained standing was demolished.

The thing that puzzles me the most is not why nothing was rebuilt in Britain, but why everything was pulled down. Britain did not suffer as much as Germany so very little would actually have had to be reconstructed. Visit the the Lost London thread in the UK section. Almost everything grand that London lost was due to demolition in the post-war decades.

The reconstructed Dresden will probably look very good but the sad truth is that itīs all fake. No history left.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 12:58 AM   #1917
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When it comes to historic buildings no German city can compete with Rome or Florence either.
Of course hardly any city can compete with Rome's history but plenty of German cities had beautiful medieval architecture. I mean Frankfurt's half-timbered old town was incredible and if it wasn't for the goddamn war people would visit the city because of it. So IMO many German cities definitely could have competed with their Italian counterparts.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 01:19 AM   #1918
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The reconstructed Dresden will probably look very good but the sad truth is that itīs all fake. No history left.
It is not fake. It is reconstruction! And when that is fake in your opinion, than better fake that the typical post war crap that has been built anywhere else. They should have done it at more places in Europe!
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Old November 4th, 2010, 02:06 AM   #1919
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I don't think we can use tags like "fake" anyway. Is Warsaw's old town fake? What about St. Mark's Campanile? These are reconstructions of buildings that stood there for centuries and will once again be there for centuries (which probably can't be said about a lot of modern architecture).
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Old November 4th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #1920
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It is not fake. It is reconstruction! And when that is fake in your opinion, than better fake that the typical post war crap that has been built anywhere else. They should have done it at more places in Europe!
Are you kidding, there is nothing 'fake' about it. I'm amazed how historically accurate the buildings are, and the fact the artistry and craftsmanship still exists today to build those baroque masterpieces. If anything its an extension of history and in time will be a footnote.

Even Rome's Coliseum has been modified, rebuilt and modernized over the past few thousand years....
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