daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 8th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #1941
El_Greco
Épater la Bourgeoisie
 
El_Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London/Taipei
Posts: 19,307
Likes (Received): 8163

I can go through everything I said and substantiate it with tons of photo and written evidence. Do you want me to or do you admit defeat?
__________________
My Travels : Barcelona|Edinburgh|Glasgow|London|Madrid|New York|Paris|Taipei|Vilnius

Last edited by El_Greco; November 8th, 2010 at 12:18 AM.
El_Greco está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 8th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #1942
Dr.Mabuse
Proud Member of the DWF!
 
Dr.Mabuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 897
Likes (Received): 548

Every country has nice and unique architecture by it's own Don't get this Britain vs- Germany and Europe in whole - thing?

I like british cities, german cities, austrian and frenc cities etc.
Dr.Mabuse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 12:22 AM   #1943
El_Greco
Épater la Bourgeoisie
 
El_Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London/Taipei
Posts: 19,307
Likes (Received): 8163

I also like British, German, Austrian and French cities. Besides we are all friends now anyway.



__________________
My Travels : Barcelona|Edinburgh|Glasgow|London|Madrid|New York|Paris|Taipei|Vilnius

Highcliff liked this post
El_Greco está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #1944
cardiff
Registered User
 
cardiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,418
Likes (Received): 5843

Like i said el_stinko, theres no point discussing anything with you and i cant be bothered disrailing this thread over the usual 4 pages to prove you wrong again.

Back on topic i admire Dresden council for doing this project, hopefully some of the overall beauty will be restored as can be seen in some of the more prominant developments already completed.
cardiff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 03:58 AM   #1945
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff View Post
I would have a civilised discussion with you El_stinko but as you have proved many times, you have no ability to change your opinion or listen to evidence, you state myths and opinions as fact and then leave the thread once youve been proven totaly wrong. Enough said.
Name calling is just immature and suggests facts are not the issue. If one actually has facts to back up opinion, one does not need resort to name calling and bullying behavior. Enough said.

Folks, remember World War II? The residual anger/hatred/pain/suffering that is marketed to this day has of course left things German in an inferior position in the media, in educational materials, etc. It's understandable, but the effect has led to a huge lack of awareness and understanding of the culture in central europe pre WWII, what was lost, and the extensive value it represents if remembered and/or restored.

c'mon now, are you serious about tourism? I am indirectly in the tourist busienss and "Germany" is generlly off limits for promoting. Posters for London, Paris, Rome, Barcelona, and countries are commonplace, but you see "Europe" when you see an image of Neuschanstein or the Brandenburg Gate. Germany is hard to sell; many ignorants still think the SS is roaming the streets, and ONE incident in Rostock that is racially based is EXPLODED across the media to suggest nazism is all around. come the US and see fascist roaming the streets.

It wasn't until the Wall came down that most people even heard of Dresden. To this day the so-called debate about its fate and casualties remains an open ended issue.

And, unmiversity ratings among top centers of learning are PR efforts generally bought by huge endowments of alumni. Do you seriously thing Mr Obama's talent pool can only be filled by Harvard and Yale? Please.

All this to say the posting by tiaren and wolfpaw and el greco frame the issues quite well and are nicely stated.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 04:45 AM   #1946
JohnnyFive
Registered User
 
JohnnyFive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 2,378
Likes (Received): 335

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff View Post
most notably edinburgh (being a regional capital like Dresden was)
Edinburgh is a national capital.
JohnnyFive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 04:58 AM   #1947
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff
most notably edinburgh (being a regional capital like Dresden was


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyFive View Post
Edinburgh is a national capital.
Absolutely. Talk about British bias....
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #1948
Tom Hughes
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,491
Likes (Received): 989

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff View Post
Moving on and ignoring El_stinko


Tom hughes, are you seriously comparing the Uk with thew whole continent and all its capital cities and major cities? Try comparing Britiain with just one country such as Spain, France Germany etc. On this level Britiain has just as many larg cities, if you think cities in the UK are smaller then you need to compare stats, which i think you will find show that britians cities are not comparably smaller despite having a smaller population than most European countrys. British cities are rarely built on a block system, glasgow is the only real one and it does have block after block of beauitul victorian and georgian architecture
Cardiff,
I think the whole Issue started with respect to Germany's cities..... I would suggest that on the whole the major cities of Germany are far bigger (in terms of their city centres, and metropolitan area populations) than that of the UK. I have visited most of them and the disparity is stark. You can comfortably cover all UK provincial city-centres on foot, you would struggle with several German ones.

In terms of Spain, there is no provincial city in the UK bigger than Barcelona, and certainly none anywhere near as grand (by a long stretch). Similarly the cities of Valencia, Seville, and the smaller cities of Bilbao, Zaragoza, Mercia, Cadiz, Cordoba, Malaga are very beautiful and vibrant places, with centres bigger than most equivalent sized UK cities since they comprise mainly of large centres with high-density residential areas surrounding them, expanding the centres dramatically for the population size. In most British cities vast low density suburbs suck the life out of the centres.

I'm also very familiar with Glasgow (my Grandmother was born there), and I'm in Scotland every month...... again, you could probably fit the city centre several times into Barcelona's.

Regardless of what's been achieved in the past 10-15yrs in the UK, no city centre areas have expanded that much, and I live in one of the most redeveloped ones. We just don't do cities as well as many other countries!
Tom Hughes no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #1949
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,349
Likes (Received): 891

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Restorations of the frescoes of the Sistine Chapel over the centuries made quite a lot of changes to Michelangelos original work. Does that make them fake? Should they be removed?
I would call that an artistic process I think. The thing is that many reconstructions in Riga and Frankfurt are simply disneyesque and cheap looking. Iīm all in favour off rebuilding lost gems and complete some streets that would otherwise look ugly and broken. Rebuilding whole city centres is ridiculous in many ways. For example I would love to see the Finnish city of Turku rebuilt but at the same time I couldnīt stand the fakeness of it.

Many British cities probably are uglier than cities on the continent, but to claim that Germany is a forerunner when it comes to beautiful big cities is a bit rich. French and Italian cities are more beautiful than British cities overall though.

Funny how "London was a muddy, cramped medieval mess" when Frankfurt was the "greatest medieval city in Europe". Sort out your arguments please.

As for "keepthepastīs" theories about fake architecture and performing: wtf?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
I can go through everything I said and substantiate it with tons of photo and written evidence. Do you want me to or do you admit defeat?
Probably, but one thing you got wrong. There are towerblocks in almost every European city, probably a lot more than in Britain. Letīs face it the ghettos of Paris are probably the worst in Western Europe. Iīve seen commie blocks in Helsinki, Stockholm, Berlin, Cologne etc..

Last edited by Mr Bricks; November 8th, 2010 at 10:46 PM.
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #1950
El_Greco
Épater la Bourgeoisie
 
El_Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London/Taipei
Posts: 19,307
Likes (Received): 8163

I did not say anything about Frankfurt or British cities being ugly. They are not.

To describe reconstructed centres of Riga and other cities as fake is ridiculous. How are they disneyesque and cheap looking when they are exact replicas of what was there before? Theyve been rebuilt using old plans, drawings, photos and maps and in many cases using period techniques. Perhaps they shouldve built some concrete tower block or left buildings in ruins? Remember these buildings had garish colours when built too, however centuries of weathering dulled the colours away, the reconstructions are new and had no time to weather yet. Also keep in mind old photos were shot in blue channel which gives this dark, brooding look with lots of contrast.



__________________

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by El_Greco; November 8th, 2010 at 11:00 PM.
El_Greco está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 11:47 PM   #1951
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,349
Likes (Received): 891

^Yeah saw that one when I was in Riga, really beautiful but in real life you can tell itīs not the original. Many buildings in the old town area have been beautifully reconstructed other are compromised and look awful. However, in cases such as the one above I agree that reconstruction is needed.

There are plenty of buildings that could be reconstructed in London: London Bridge, parts of the river banks, Imperial Institute, Euston Arch, Coal Exchange, Mappin Webb building etc and certainly many buildings along Farringdon Street and Thames Street.
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 12:45 AM   #1952
henry69
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 20
Likes (Received): 0

ElGreco,why do you continue to argue with Mr Bricks? His opinion is just 1, who cares?
henry69 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #1953
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,349
Likes (Received): 891

^Great contribution henry. Maybe he (just like myself) likes a good discussion?
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #1954
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Occupied Europe
Posts: 23,659

I think it's a valid discussion. What I for example always find amazing about Gothic cathedrals is the fact that these magnificent buildings were built centuries ago. Their size, their huge windows and vaults are impressive by themselves but their age and the fact that these buildings were erected without modern tools stands out. Now I can also appreciate something like the Votivkirche but its "awesomeness" is somewhat diminished by the fact that it was built in the late 19th century.
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

Highcliff liked this post
Kampflamm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #1955
durden5573
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Banff, Alberta
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 114

I think there needs to be a distinction between "fake" and "new". Reconstructions like those in Riga and Dresden appear Disneyland-ish because they are shiny and new, giving a stark comparison to the surrounding areas, and old black and white pictures.

In time these buildings will have a rich patina that gives historic buildings their aged feel. I'm confident that as time goes by, the "fake" criticism will become less and less relevant.
durden5573 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #1956
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Occupied Europe
Posts: 23,659

Warsaw is a perfect example. I'm sure plenty of people would never guess that the old town was reconstructed after WWII (albeit sometimes with old materials).
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

Highcliff liked this post
Kampflamm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 10:06 PM   #1957
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

We also have to realize that even had old districts like downtown Dresden not been bombed or destroyed in 1945, the old buildings would very likely have been refurbished, repainted, updated, and restored and look today much more like the new reconstructions do.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #1958
Botswana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 266
Likes (Received): 30

What a stupid argument. Who cares if it`s fake! Would you rather have some ugly post modernist shit instead of a re-constructed neumarkt and Frauenkirche?

Dresden was destroyed, unfortunately. That is part of it`s history. We can`t just leave the city in ruins. Yes, it looks a little Euro-Disney now, but in a few decades, aging will take its toll.
Botswana no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2010, 02:44 AM   #1959
wolfpaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 304
Likes (Received): 116

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
We also have to realize that even had old districts like downtown Dresden not been bombed or destroyed in 1945, the old buildings would very likely have been refurbished, repainted, updated, and restored and look today much more like the new reconstructions do.
Good point. I'm often surprised when I see photos of historic towns in Germany that weren't bombed and yet today they look almost completely new (partially because of over-zealous restoration).
wolfpaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2010, 02:46 AM   #1960
wolfpaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 304
Likes (Received): 116

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botswana View Post
Who cares if it`s fake! Would you rather have some ugly post modernist shit instead of a re-constructed neumarkt and Frauenkirche?
So very very true!!

I'd take any reconstructed historic building over anything that was modernist (post or otherwise). I just despise it so much.
wolfpaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
classic architecture, classic europe, construction updates, dresden, reconstruction, redevelopment, rekonstrucje, rekonstruktion, sachsen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu