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Old November 27th, 2011, 08:47 AM   #61
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Quote:
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Putting gates on heavy-trafficked systems like subways make sense. They make fare dodging more obvious and reduce the need for manpower (conductors). After all, a greater number of people is willing to just not buy a ticket and pray the conductor never comes than jump a turnstile.
The conductor opens / closes the doors , ensures the safety of the Passengers and announces the station stops on the older trains.... At least on the Subways....they do not and never collected tickets...thats there job on Intercity and Regional Rail...
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Old November 27th, 2011, 09:07 AM   #62
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where in germany? In berlin for boarding a bus, you have to show your ticket. In Poland almost every city, it is an honour system for bus, tram and train.
You don't have gates at the entrance to U-Bahn and S-Bahn stations. That^s what I means. I know you have to show a ticket when boarding a bus, which is inefficient, as it means the dwell time at stops increases.
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Old November 27th, 2011, 09:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Putting gates on heavy-trafficked systems like subways make sense. They make fare dodging more obvious and reduce the need for manpower (conductors). After all, a greater number of people is willing to just not buy a ticket and pray the conductor never comes than jump a turnstile.

Fighting fare evasion is mostly a matter of trade-offs. Fare evasion costs the transit system money, but combatting it does too.

In the town where I live the whole system (heavy and light rail, tram, buses) works on the honor system. You can board a bus or tram through any door (And trams have 7 doors...) which reduces dwell times and increases punctuality.
To fight fare evasion they have spot checks. A team of inspectors boards at one stop and checks the whole vehicle between two stops. I see inspections about twice a month. I see them actually catching a fare evader about once a year. Fare evasion is very low. The fact that the fine for fare evasion is higher than the cost of a monthly pass for the system might have something to do with that...
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Old November 27th, 2011, 09:15 AM   #64
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We really need a smart card/IC card system in the Philippines as well.......to reduce massive overcrowding when buying tickets (especially at interchange stations).
Why is this especially a problem at interchange stations. Do people have to buy a new ticket when making a transfer? That's a problem that should be adressed first.
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Old November 27th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #65
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Does anyone notice a pattern here?

In East Asia, the fare gates won't block a serious fare dodger.
In the US, London, and Paris, the fare gates are large enough to block fare dodgers.
In Germanic countries, there's no gate at all.

Maybe it reflects social norms around the world.
It has several reasons. I think it also depends on who uses public transit. In Switzerland public transit is pretty much a middle class thing, used by a group op regular customers that use monthly or yearly passes. When a high proportion of your passengers travels on unlimited passes (80-90%) an open access, honor system makes a lot of sense, as it is cheap. No expensive gates to operate and maintain, and access and boarding is speedy, which increases the performance of your system.
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Old November 27th, 2011, 03:04 PM   #66
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The conductor opens / closes the doors , ensures the safety of the Passengers and announces the station stops on the older trains.... At least on the Subways....they do not and never collected tickets...thats there job on Intercity and Regional Rail...
It's a matter of terminology and uses. Here in Europe, it is fairly common for conductors to inspect tickets, they don't have their own cabins and so. We also have fare/ticker inspectors taking care only of fighting evasion
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Old January 20th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #67
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Some more pictures of the gates in Oslo:





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Old January 20th, 2012, 02:46 PM   #68
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It has several reasons. I think it also depends on who uses public transit. In Switzerland public transit is pretty much a middle class thing, used by a group op regular customers that use monthly or yearly passes. When a high proportion of your passengers travels on unlimited passes (80-90%) an open access, honor system makes a lot of sense, as it is cheap. No expensive gates to operate and maintain, and access and boarding is speedy, which increases the performance of your system.
I'm sure there are people specialized in "beating the system" in Switzerland, and it is an outdated practice anyway. If you can do something with more technology and sophistication, why do it like it were 1960?
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Old January 20th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #69
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Houston's light rail system does not have them (they use the honor system instead) so I will post the faregates of other Heavy Rail systems instead.

New York Subway:
image hosted on flickr

Entry here by afagen, on Flickr

Washington Metro:




Boston T:




Atlanta MARTA:




San Francisco BART:

Last edited by diablo234; January 21st, 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 09:15 PM   #70
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Putting gates on heavy-trafficked systems like subways make sense. They make fare dodging more obvious and reduce the need for manpower (conductors).
Quite the opposite is true. Ticket gates require vastly more staff. The gate need to be erected, maintained and watched during the operating hours of the metro system.

Quote:
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I'm sure there are people specialized in "beating the system" in Switzerland, and it is an outdated practice anyway. If you can do something with more technology and sophistication, why do it like it were 1960?
It is easier to fool machinery than ticket inspectors. The good old honour system is certainly not outdated.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #71
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Quite the opposite is true. Ticket gates require vastly more staff. The gate need to be erected, maintained and watched during the operating hours of the metro system.
Modern systems can easily operate without human watching over the gates! There are high-glass gates that can be used without assistance. And, for sake, they are essential for UTO or merely driverless operations, a trend I'd likely to see expanded (the less Union-typical transit jobs a system has to operate the same network, and the more specialized and requiring advanced degrees, the better)

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It is easier to fool machinery than ticket inspectors. The good old honour system is certainly not outdated.
You can't have ticket inspectors in all trains, all the time, as you can have gates. This creates things like "everybody knows you can ride the Metro after 11.30pm and not be checked ever"
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Old January 21st, 2012, 03:47 AM   #73
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Kuala Lumpur RapidKL rapid transit system

This is the latest AFC system for RapidKL rapid transit lines. The ticketing infrastructures were supplied by Indra Sistemas from Spain.







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Old January 21st, 2012, 04:58 PM   #74
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Modern systems can easily operate without human watching over the gates! There are high-glass gates that can be used without assistance. And, for sake, they are essential for UTO or merely driverless operations, a trend I'd likely to see expanded (the less Union-typical transit jobs a system has to operate the same network, and the more specialized and requiring advanced degrees, the better)
Unguarded ticket gates are worse. They are an invitation for fare dodging while it lacks the necessary assistance for elderly people. And in case of breakdown of the ticket gates or an emergency there would no-one be there to open the gates manually.

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You can't have ticket inspectors in all trains, all the time, as you can have gates. This creates things like "everybody knows you can ride the Metro after 11.30pm and not be checked ever"
You don't need ticket inspectors in every train. An inspection here and there is actually enough. And very few metro system operate beyond 2330.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 07:12 PM   #75
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Unguarded ticket gates are worse. They are an invitation for fare dodging while it lacks the necessary assistance for elderly people. And in case of breakdown of the ticket gates or an emergency there would no-one be there to open the gates manually.
Modern gates operate on sensors and automatically opened glass or steel panels, without the need to physically displace a turnstile! There are plenty of such systems around.

Many of those gates can have emergency systems that can be activated by an emergency button, like a fire button or something. Others will automatically open in case of fire etc.

Are you saying that unmanned train operations should not exist? If we have trains that operate without a single human employee, why should be a problem to have likewise stations?
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Old January 21st, 2012, 10:00 PM   #76
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18 Jan 2012 :

clickable...
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Old March 5th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #77
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How does it work elsewhere when it comes to staff at the ticket gates? In Oslo the gates will probably never be "closed" but will remain open to avoid the need to have staff at all ticket gates (in case of fire etc.). Is it staff at all ticket gates elsewhere?
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Old March 7th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #78
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How does it work elsewhere when it comes to staff at the ticket gates? In Oslo the gates will probably never be "closed" but will remain open to avoid the need to have staff at all ticket gates (in case of fire etc.). Is it staff at all ticket gates elsewhere?
You mean how do station staff pass through the gates? I've seen special cards that employees use to enter without the need to pay.
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Old March 8th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #79
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You mean how do station staff pass through the gates? I've seen special cards that employees use to enter without the need to pay.
No, I mean if there are staff present at the gates at any time, or is it also gates at stations without staff on the station?
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Old March 8th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #80
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You can't have ticket inspectors in all trains, all the time, as you can have gates. This creates things like "everybody knows you can ride the Metro after 11.30pm and not be checked ever"
You solve that problem by having your ticket inspectors also work evenings. Increases the feeling of security in the system too.

The way public transit systems that work on the honour system do it is quite simple: Make the fine for fare evasion higher than what a monthly pass cost. Then make sure that the chance you get checked at least once a month as a regular user is non negligible. The other factor is to make it easy for most customers to be honest.

On the system I regularly travel on the vast majority (80%) has monthly or yearly passes. The others travel on tickets. However the tariff system makes this easy too. If you buy a return ticket to Zürich down town from somewhere in the outer suburbs this automatically becomes a day pass valid on all transportation in the zones along the route you need to travel. That way it's easy to buy a ticket at the start of your trip, and you can just then forget about it. Since you will be using multiple vehicles on that single ticket the chance of it being inspected at least once is quite real. People who regularly travel a route, but not frequent enough to buy a pass, just buy a multi ride ticket, and stamp it when boarding the first vehicle on their trip.
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