The US: A hellhole compared to other developed nations?

[tombantdesfoetus]

Is the United States far behind other developed countries when it comes to social structure?

Hurricane Katrina recently opened our eyes about poverty in America. the United States indeed has the highest wealth disparity of all developed nations. As the middle class continues to grow in other industrial nations, the middle class shrinks in the US. What does that say about us?

A former ambassador to the US from Sweden stated in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and the situation in New Orleans that "The United States is a nation of great wealth, but is in some ways a developing country."

Is the the US all it's cracked up to be?

[ReddAlert]

hell yeah its all its cracked up to be.

[Architorture]

where did you get that the middle class in the united states is shrinking? the middle class in the united states is more powerful RIGHT NOW than it probably has ever been...

and i feel sorry for you that it took katrina to open your eyes to poverty in america... anyone who is surprised by what they saw in new orleans apparently has never been to any city of any size and seen that many many areas in the united states have significant poverty issues...

granted these people are not starving and dying on the streets daily but katrina did show how precarious a situation many americans do in fact live in... also to believe this is an issue relegated only to inner city minorities would also be a mistake... many of americas poorest and most disadvantaged don't even have the opportunities available to city dwellers such as social programs and networks of help... people living in isolated communities throughout appalachia and the deep south have little available to them other than what they can do for themselves and perrenially live in conditions similar to those seen in NO right now...that being a lack of electricity, readily available drinking water, and sanitary systems....

the possible silver lining in all of this is that maybe the international community will finally get a better understanding of the politico-socio-cultural landscape in the united states and why americans seemed so concerned only with the united states...

things aren't all rosey and fun over here in the US, there are deep and complicated issues that are still in dire need of resolution and thought... the domestic landscape in the united states isn't as simple and single dimensional as many in on the outside seem to like to believe and maybe just maybe... however humbling, or even embarrassing this event may seem for the US, it might just give the world a better understanding of the US and so it seems, might even give some americans a better understanding of the US as well...

[Jay]

Is the US more than it's cracked up to be?


Yes, In some ways.

We are the largest of the 1st world countries in population however. But Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most european countries are just as "developed" as the states.

[Furiine]

When you look at the scope of things, the US is a third world country that puts on a first world mask. Yes, we're developed, industrialized, and hold a large number of well-off people. But one only needs to venture into their surroundings to see the impoverished world. I think a lot of people are intellectually aware that poverty and such exists in the country, but very few actually have a concrete, "I've been there to understand these people" understanding. I'd say the most depressing experience I've ever had was an Amtrak ride from Baltimore to New York last March on a really cloudy, cold day. I know developments next to railroads aren't the most likely places one would find well off areas, but it nonetheless reveals the wounds of the country and it's right in your face for hours on. You can't avoid it by looking at it. For 200 miles, on a three hour trip, I peered out the window and saw just non-stop waves of boarded up, rusty, bombed out-looking factories and homes. Some areas were far worse than others. I couldn't fathom how such a disease could have done so much damage. Only a few forests and parks really broke up the constant sight of poverty. These places screamed apathy, even though there are plenty of good, intelligent people living in such bleak conditions. People deserve better, but the education system is in shambles in many places. I know I'm sort of walking blind for only pointing to one example where this problem is presented, but watch Lou Dobbs Tonight sometime. He nails the problem with America from many aspects, such as the outsourcing of jobs and the crumbling education system. Maybe the greatest threat of all are dysfunctional homes, but how can those be fixed?

[Jackhammer]

The U.S. is what it is. They are not behind other developed countries, they seem to have the social structure the majority wants. If the U.S. wanted the social net of countries like Canada, Sweden, The Netherlands, Australia etc.. they would choose to vote those policies in no? The everyman for himself, capitalizm first mentallity is what has led them to such great wealth and yet such a huge wealth gap.

[great prairie]

YOU ARE ALL MORONS IF A MODERATOR READS THIS BAN ME

[danmocz]

yes this country is all its cracked up to be. but no one should expect the US to be #1 in everything. and i know that its been said already, but just to say it again, the middle class is not shrinking, but doing the exact opposite.

[Nic]

First off, moderators, please do ban great prairie. In several other posts, he has called people much worse than "morons", and he is basically begging to be banned.

Anyways, I would like you people saying the middle-class in the U.S. is growing to show your evidence. I have heard quite the opposite, and that the only thing keeping the U.S. from going into a serious recession has been low-interest rates. I believe that high oil prices could counter the "benefit" of having low interest rates.

I also know people's earnings are not keeping up with costs. In general, people are making less than they did five years ago, and prices are rising on just about everything; this shows no signs of changing anytime soon.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I have a feeling the U.S. is about to experience some really bad times. I know I will be mocked for saying it, but I think the U.S. faces a similiar fate as that of the former U.S.S.R. Remember that it was considered a superpower only a few years before it collapsed. We are under an unfathomable debt, reaching into the TRILLIONS, and must continue to borrow to maintain the status quo. How long can we continue to borrow? How long before they refuse to loan us more money? From military spending, to being isolationist, to the fact of outsourcing and the coming superpowers of the E.U. and China, I feel America is beginning a steep and rapid decline before our eyes.

LET THE BASHING BEGIN!!!!!!!!!

[AZian]

The US is all it is cracked up to be. This is a place where pretty much anyone can achieve their goals and dreams. A free country isnt a place where you get everything for free, it is where everyone is given the opportunity to get everything and anything. Albeit the right-wing is trimming away our civil-liberties and social constraints are at pre 1950s levels, the U.S. is still all it's cracked up to be. However, as stated above, Lou Dobbs does a magnificent job pointing out what is threatening the "American Way" with such issues as hefty tax-cuts to wealthy people, our poor (for a nation of such great wealth) public education system, and so forth. In other words, the right-wing regime in place today is what is threatening America, call me a moron.

[Architorture]

Originally Posted by Nic

First off, moderators, please do ban great prairie. In several other posts, he has called people much worse than "morons", and he is basically begging to be banned.

Anyways, I would like you people saying the middle-class in the U.S. is growing to show your evidence. I have heard quite the opposite, and that the only thing keeping the U.S. from going into a serious recession has been low-interest rates. I believe that high oil prices could counter the "benefit" of having low interest rates.

I also know people's earnings are not keeping up with costs. In general, people are making less than they did five years ago, and prices are rising on just about everything; this shows no signs of changing anytime soon.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I have a feeling the U.S. is about to experience some really bad times. I know I will be mocked for saying it, but I think the U.S. faces a similiar fate as that of the former U.S.S.R. Remember that it was considered a superpower only a few years before it collapsed. We are under an unfathomable debt, reaching into the TRILLIONS, and must continue to borrow to maintain the status quo. How long can we continue to borrow? How long before they refuse to loan us more money? From military spending, to being isolationist, to the fact of outsourcing and the coming superpowers of the E.U. and China, I feel America is beginning a steep and rapid decline before our eyes.

LET THE BASHING BEGIN!!!!!!!!!

and where might your evidence be? all i saw was "i've heard this" or "i've heard that"

i think you are confusing the concept of the wealth gap with the middle class disappearing... yes the gap b/w the wealthy and the poor is in many cases growing and no so much b/c the poor are getting poorer, but b/c the wealthy are getting much much more wealthy...the poor stand still while the wealthy run away, both groups are running from one another...

what is happening is that the job market is becoming more polarized in many cases. jobs in manufacturing for example used to be a staple middle class position, but as those jobs have left the country the manufacturing industry is left with those in the administrative and management structure and those at the very bottom of the heap doing phone work and customer service and delivery and such...

the money is still there but instead of being spread out equally to a bunch of people it goes to lesser people with some [management/admin] making alot and some [everyone else] making less than the original manufacturing labor force...

is the shift in distribution enough to force either of the groups out of the middle class? that is up to the debate of where the middle class starts and ends...

in the long run, the middle class isn't going anywhere... you mention low interest rates as if they are going to be a huge downfall but those are in fact what have heavily enpowered the middle class over the past decade or so...

cheap money lets you exert more power in a short time instead of having to take 5,10,20 years to gain that economic influence...

as for US debt... we grew out of our 80's debt and ended up with a surplus, we'll grow out of our 00's debt as well... b/c no matter how 'poorly' the US economy has done it has always been growing... and even 1% of growth for the US economy is an enormous amount of money...

not to mention those loaning the US money [asia] has gotten into a situation where they cannot refuse to loan funds... since if asia NO to the US they would be signing their own death certificate... since the money they are loaning the US is in fact the US's money that has gone to asia in the form of trading or jobs...

if asia cuts off the flow of money out they essentially cut off the flow of money in, which would be more devastating for them than it would be for the US since many are in a fragile economic growth situation

[cwilson758]

Originally Posted by Architorture

where did you get that the middle class in the united states is shrinking? the middle class in the united states is more powerful RIGHT NOW than it probably has ever been...

Any where you look for the data. Wages are shrinking as factory jobs, typical "middle-class jobs," pack-up and move over seas. The "new jobs created this month" number is always misleading. Most of those jobs are service-oriented jobs and pay little. The middle-class is shrinking. Unfortunately this is true.

[rt_0891]

I have friends in SF right now who have their IT jobs outsourced in India, & are desparately trying to find temporary contract work to stay afloat financially. Some are planning to relocate to Asia, where there seems to be more opportunities. Ironically, they were sent (and then laid-off) to India last year to train the workers who were eventually going to replace them.

[NovaWolverine]

Yes, I could face a similar situation being in a very technical field, but that's the way the US is. If a company can get better workers(sometimes) and pay them less overseas and in turn increase their profit margin, that's their decision, if you feel the gov't should intervene then that's your opinion.

I do think the upperclass is getting bigger, meaning more middle class moving up, and the low class is getting bigger at a smaller rate from the lower middle class. A lot of this is due to outsourcing, unions, and technology that can perform the job better, more efficiently and cheaper.

While I do think people in the US should be able to keep their jobs, I do feel that something doesn't feel right with making corporations higher more people over here when theres no incentive for them to do so, I say people become motivated to do their job better than those in other countries.

There are people in other countries like India and China, that are nothing like Europe in their socioeconomic structure, and the mental side, ambition, motivation, etc, that's instilled from society and the family is phenomenal. We need that in the US, and it's going to take people to acknowledge that and invest time, not spend more and more money to fix something that money really can't fix.

[Nic]

Originally Posted by Architorture

and where might your evidence be? all i saw was "i've heard this" or "i've heard that"

i think you are confusing the concept of the wealth gap with the middle class disappearing... yes the gap b/w the wealthy and the poor is in many cases growing and no so much b/c the poor are getting poorer, but b/c the wealthy are getting much much more wealthy...the poor stand still while the wealthy run away, both groups are running from one another...

what is happening is that the job market is becoming more polarized in many cases. jobs in manufacturing for example used to be a staple middle class position, but as those jobs have left the country the manufacturing industry is left with those in the administrative and management structure and those at the very bottom of the heap doing phone work and customer service and delivery and such...

the money is still there but instead of being spread out equally to a bunch of people it goes to lesser people with some [management/admin] making alot and some [everyone else] making less than the original manufacturing labor force...

is the shift in distribution enough to force either of the groups out of the middle class? that is up to the debate of where the middle class starts and ends...

in the long run, the middle class isn't going anywhere... you mention low interest rates as if they are going to be a huge downfall but those are in fact what have heavily enpowered the middle class over the past decade or so...

cheap money lets you exert more power in a short time instead of having to take 5,10,20 years to gain that economic influence...

as for US debt... we grew out of our 80's debt and ended up with a surplus, we'll grow out of our 00's debt as well... b/c no matter how 'poorly' the US economy has done it has always been growing... and even 1% of growth for the US economy is an enormous amount of money...

not to mention those loaning the US money [asia] has gotten into a situation where they cannot refuse to loan funds... since if asia NO to the US they would be signing their own death certificate... since the money they are loaning the US is in fact the US's money that has gone to asia in the form of trading or jobs...

if asia cuts off the flow of money out they essentially cut off the flow of money in, which would be more devastating for them than it would be for the US since many are in a fragile economic growth situation

It sounds to me like we actually agree on the fact good paying manufacturing, IT, etc. type of jobs are being replaced by lower paying service jobs. Many people are making substantially less money, while the prices of goods has increased substantially. Whether this means the middle-class is "disappearing", or if much of the U.S.'s standard of living is dropping is a matter of semantics, and really misses the point. The rich are getting richer, while the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks.

As far as the debt in the 80's, you are confused my friend. We never payed off that debt. The surplus you mention, is that in that fiscal year or years, the goverment spent less than they brought in. Some of the surplus was used to pay off a fraction of the debt. That does not mean by any stretch of the imagination we were ever out of debt. I am sorry, but I believe you underestimate the magnitude Mr. Ronald Reagan, and now Mr. George Bush have put us in with our 4 trillion+ dollar debt. This will never be paid off, as America can not live within it's means. The only time we were able to, was during the U.S.'s greatest economic expansion in it's history during the mid/late 90's; and even then it was because at that time military spending, our greatest expenditure by far, was at relatively low dollar amounts. With the "War on Terror" expected to last at least decades, this will not be the case in the future for a very long time.

Lastly, as far as the the loans, I honestly didn't know where we get the money. But, regardless, I think you are missing an important aspect. As America's buying power decreases, and other nations, primarily China's increases, the U.S. will become much less important in the global economy. This is already occurring at an alarming rate, but will concede we are probably talking another two, or three decades before the U.S. goes bankrupt. Another huge factor in my belief is that with our population aging, the costs to our society is/will grow tremendously. All these factors spell very bad things in the U.S.'s future. But hey, I hope I'm wrong; I don't want to live in a crappy place. I just don't understand why people think the U.S. dominance in the world is permanent. We are declining; the question is whether we bow out gracefully, or terribly. Unless we get a major change of policy, I fear the latter will be tha case.

[cwilson758]

Nic-

Amen, brotha!

[DonQui]

A hellhole, definitely not.

Let me give you guys a perfect example: my own family.

A half a century ago, my grandparents were poor farmers laboring in the mountains of Puerto Rico. They could not support themselves, and my grandfather only had a second grade education, and my grandmother only up to the sixth grade. So, they came to New York to provide for their family.

My grandfather could not find any other job that working in a disgusting hellhole of a factory. One thing that he did not accept at least of his children was mediocrity, and knowing how much his lack of an education limited his chances, he expected his kids to finish high school.

My father finished high school, completing what his father had expected of him, and went to work in a factory. My dad hated the job so much that he went to college. Afterwards, he went to professional school.

My parents expected even more of me, so I managed to get myself into a great college, and now am going to graduate school myself.

There are very few places where the grandson of an un-educated farmer can be going to graduate school in such a short time. America is one of them.

[DonQui]

Part II

But, here is a word for warning. In the US, we tend to look at our do-it-yourself immigrant work ethic and use it to look down on most parts of the world. If we continue with this attitude, pretending that we are the best in everything, it will be our downfall.

France is a lightining rod for feelings of American superiority. Yet, the French system has also achieved much as well. The emphasis on equality there is even stronger then in the US, lest we forget that it has only been 40 years that blacks have been considered completely equal to whites. And there are certain things like public transportation and health that the US is starting to fall behind. There is no reason for us to have 40 million uninsured in this country. There is no need for us to be spending $40,000 a year at college, leaving this only open to the wealthier classes.

If we look at the rest of the developed world as much as they look towards us for inspiration, we will be unstoppable in this century too.

[facundo]

that happens here in argentina too. my family is the case, just put "italy" instead of "puerto rico". but it doesn't mean argentina middle class is growing or that we have a good social structure. half of the people in argentina is poor, yet cases like the one you put as an example, do exist.

[TO_Joe]

It is always risky to comment on national character, but since I have lived in the US and been elsewhere, I will venture my comments.

US Strengths:
1. overall, still a relatively open society with a capacity to absorb other peoples, cultures and new ideas (we will ignore the Pat Buchanan types and the nativist Minutemen border vigilantes for a moment -- generally, they are fringey)
2. strong ideal of entrepreneurialism and opportunity permeating all levels of society: you will notice this most among the new immigrants who come to America to "make it / get rich / self-betterment / etc." (This can be double-edged. For example, customer service can be excellent, but generally if 1) they are catering to the upper classes or the rich 2) if they are under competition 3) if they think that can create competitive advantage. Otherwise, if they don't think it will lead to higher returns, then they will try to replace the well-mannered friendly deferential staff with surly minimum wage burger flippers).

US Weaknesses:
3. poor quality of mass education (some suburban public schools can be excellent, but your average Joe coming from your average school (not just in the inner cities, but in the white suburbs as well) is very mediocre in the basics of math, language, science and social studies and particularly awareness of the rest of the world and critical reasoning) -- this has major consequences in workplace competitiveness and on the quality of political debate that is essential to a fully functioning democracy
4. arrogance steming from absolutist ideologies (including certain proselytizing religions or religious interpretations) and social conditioning

These 4 elements create the sort of interactions you see every day -- industriousness, national wealth, optimism, nationalism, opportunism, hype, hysterical overaction, social and political polarization that lead to constant struggles and purges, crime and fear, perception of insensitivity in other parts of the world.

It's all part of the same package.