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Old April 26th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #281
KIWIKAAS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Maussie View Post
It should, by standard traffic rules, but I've personally never seen one without any signs. Usually it's the traffic on the roundabout that has right of way.
There used to be some in Utrecht where the ''right hand rule'' was applied - thus traffic on the circle giving way to entering traffic. Since 99.9% of roundabouts have the opposite rule it was asking for trouble.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by El Tiburon View Post
Technically, a roundabout is a traffic control device in and by itself which requires drivers to yield to other drivers already circling around, but most people don't know this and they either jump in without yielding or, once in the circle, they stop at every entrance to let others into the circles.
Huh? Who does that? I've driven over hundreds of different roundabouts in a dozen countries and I've never once seen that behavior.

When I was learning to drive, roundabout rules were a key part of the instruction, without knowing the theory of the rules and being able to demonstrate that in practice, there's no way you can get a driving licence.
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Old April 27th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #283
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Huh? Who does that? I've driven over hundreds of different roundabouts in a dozen countries and I've never once seen that behavior.

When I was learning to drive, roundabout rules were a key part of the instruction, without knowing the theory of the rules and being able to demonstrate that in practice, there's no way you can get a driving licence.
I must agree, I have never seen people stopping in a roundabout. Not indicating or stretching the definition of 'acceptable gap' - yes, but that's all.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 07:00 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by brewerfan386 View Post
A planned roundabout from somewhere in Wisconsin.

That looks like Stoughton Rd (US 51) and Washington Ave (US 151) in Madison, looking northeastward on Washington Ave (state capitol is several km to the viewer's back).

Right now, it is a NASTY signalized intersection. If that one works out, I can think of several major intersections here in the Appleton area that could use similar treatment.

Mike
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Old April 28th, 2010, 08:03 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Huh? Who does that? I've driven over hundreds of different roundabouts in a dozen countries and I've never once seen that behavior.

When I was learning to drive, roundabout rules were a key part of the instruction, without knowing the theory of the rules and being able to demonstrate that in practice, there's no way you can get a driving licence.
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Originally Posted by scotdaliney View Post
I must agree, I have never seen people stopping in a roundabout. Not indicating or stretching the definition of 'acceptable gap' - yes, but that's all.
In South Florida, there are few traffic circles in intersections planned and built for that purpose. However, in the past few years, lots of roundabouts have been retrofitted to regular right angle intersections never intended to have a roundabout as part of a "traffic calming" craze to reduce speeds by obstructing traffic through onstacles such as circles, islands or zig-zags in the miiddle of streets and intersections where they are not needed except to play politics with neighbors in the area or to give contracts to friends of politicians in the "traffic calming" construction business.

While Florida traffic laws say that in a rotary island you must drive on the right side of such island, there is no specific law addressing these circles other than the Manual On Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) which says that drivers in the circle have the right of way, so people treat them in whatever way they want, and that includes stopping within the circle at every intersection because being so new, they don't know better!

The problem lies with the traffic calming concept which is an architectural idea that is politically-correct and sounds good in theory but it's senseless from a traffic and automotive engineering point of view and, while forcing people to slow down, it does not address the causes of accidents because it focuses solely on reducing speed which, by itself, is not a cause of accidents.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #286
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Leeuwarden, west entrance of the town, when coming from Harlingen, Europaplein (Europe Square):



Leeuwarden, northeast entrance of the town, when coming from Hurdegaryp, Vrijheidsplein (Freedom Square):



This is actually an old picture, most of the green has been build on by now. Twenty years ago traffic coming from Hurdegaryp would come straight at the roundabout, but then the made the new crossing for better traffic handling.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #287
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Roundabout in the city where currently my home is. Bielsko-Biala:



It's been photographed by Marek Kocjan:
http://www.galeria.beskidia.pl/1160_...e_zdjecie.html

Last edited by piotr71; April 28th, 2010 at 10:41 PM.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 02:10 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Tiburon View Post
In South Florida, there are few traffic circles in intersections planned and built for that purpose. However, in the past few years, lots of roundabouts have been retrofitted to regular right angle intersections never intended to have a roundabout as part of a "traffic calming" craze to reduce speeds by obstructing traffic through onstacles such as circles, islands or zig-zags in the miiddle of streets and intersections where they are not needed except to play politics with neighbors in the area or to give contracts to friends of politicians in the "traffic calming" construction business.

While Florida traffic laws say that in a rotary island you must drive on the right side of such island, there is no specific law addressing these circles other than the Manual On Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) which says that drivers in the circle have the right of way, so people treat them in whatever way they want, and that includes stopping within the circle at every intersection because being so new, they don't know better!

The problem lies with the traffic calming concept which is an architectural idea that is politically-correct and sounds good in theory but it's senseless from a traffic and automotive engineering point of view and, while forcing people to slow down, it does not address the causes of accidents because it focuses solely on reducing speed which, by itself, is not a cause of accidents.
You shouldn't extrapolate this experience to roundabouts in general, because the fact is that in Europe and other places where roundabouts have been used for a long time and people are used to and know how to use them they work very well. I've never seen the kind of erratic behaviour you describe here.. Like Jonesy55 wrote, there's the lack of signalling and people sometimes being a little too impatient to enter, but everybody knows how to drive in one and traffic flows quite smoothly.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Tiburon View Post
In South Florida, there are few traffic circles in intersections planned and built for that purpose. However, in the past few years, lots of roundabouts have been retrofitted to regular right angle intersections never intended to have a roundabout as part of a "traffic calming" craze to reduce speeds by obstructing traffic through onstacles such as circles, islands or zig-zags in the miiddle of streets and intersections where they are not needed except to play politics with neighbors in the area or to give contracts to friends of politicians in the "traffic calming" construction business.

While Florida traffic laws say that in a rotary island you must drive on the right side of such island, there is no specific law addressing these circles other than the Manual On Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) which says that drivers in the circle have the right of way, so people treat them in whatever way they want, and that includes stopping within the circle at every intersection because being so new, they don't know better!
The fundamental problem here is, roundabout isn't the same thing as a traffic circle or rotary. They are all circle, but they are different., which the general public always confuse at this point.

And MUTCD is just a design guide, but not a law to enforce anything.
There may be no law of how roundabout works, but surly there is a law on how "YIELD" sign works. I bet there is a MV law in FL does say approach with the "YIELD" sign must slow down or stop to give way for the other approach first. If the person on entry doesn't slow down, s/he has violated the law for "YIELD."
The yield could be anything from a roundabout, and a channelized right-turn at traditional signalized intersection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Tiburon View Post
The problem lies with the traffic calming concept which is an architectural idea that is politically-correct and sounds good in theory but it's senseless from a traffic and automotive engineering point of view and, while forcing people to slow down, it does not address the causes of accidents because it focuses solely on reducing speed which, by itself, is not a cause of accidents.
Studies have proved that roundabout intersection does have less crashes than the traditional intersection. Roundabout reduces the conflict points from 32 down to 8 for vehicles, and 24 down to 8 for pedestrian. It significantly reduce the potential of any crash at first.

Second, speed is a factor of causing crashes. As an example, vehicle going through a traffic signal may run into a yellow-light trap where you run the red end-up with a T-boned, or stop really hard end-up with a hard rear-end. Roundabout operation forces every driver to slow down, and eliminate that stop-or-go trap that a signal has. Severity for a low speed crash is far less serious than a high speed T-bone at a traditional signal intersection. If some pedestrian is being hit by a car going through every intersection at 50mph, s/he is pretty much hopeless and killed; but if s/he is only being hit by a 15-20mph car, s/he has a very good chance to be survived.

It has also proven roundabout can reduce traffic delay and congestion on arterials. There are examples in New York, Maryland etc. Roundabout is traffic and transportation engineering sounds, even better than the red-yellow-green light.

For anyone interest, this is a good site to learn about roundabout:
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersect...pects/long.cfm
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Old April 30th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #290
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few new roundabouts in the III. district of Budapest (Óbuda). They helped a lot as these junctions were producing a lot of congestion





and then there's this biggie in the city of Miskolc (north-east Hungary). Its a mix of a roundabout with traffic lights. I haven't been in one of those yet
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Old April 30th, 2010, 11:04 AM   #291
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here's a couple of oldschool ones, just for fun, they aren't really roundabouts either, but this is what it looked like behind the iron curtain in the 70's:
again Óbuda, Flórián square, now its full of commieblocks and a big flyover leading to Árpád bridge

this one is Baross square at Keleti trainstation

both from hampage.hu
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Old April 30th, 2010, 11:53 AM   #292
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Do you have to give way to zebra crossings in Hungary?
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Old April 30th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #293
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yes, allthough i must say we are still "learning" to do that, and if you look at pedestrians they still are very carefull before crossing because the old practice was not to yield to pedestrians (on the other hand, some make a protest of this and step in front of vehicles regardless of the situation). Also it is normal to drive about 70 km/h on a 50 km/h road which makes it hard to notice and stop for people crossing, plus it's dangerous because there's a chance of getting rammed by the car behind you. Another factor is older zebras not very visible, so there are a number of things having an effect.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #294
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We don't have Zebras on junctions in the UK. Unless there's a red light, pedestrians have no power, whatsoever.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #295
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And MUTCD is just a design guide, but not a law to enforce anything.
In Florida, the MUCTD is incorporated by reference into state law.

Quote:
There may be no law of how roundabout works, but surly there is a law on how "YIELD" sign works. I bet there is a MV law in FL does say approach with the "YIELD" sign must slow down or stop to give way for the other approach first. If the person on entry doesn't slow down, s/he has violated the law for "YIELD."
That's not the problem. Most people yield to cars already in the circle. The problem comes when drivers already in the circle stop at every entrance to let people who are yielding come into the circle.

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Studies have proved that roundabout intersection does have less crashes than the traditional intersection. Roundabout reduces the conflict points from 32 down to 8 for vehicles, and 24 down to 8 for pedestrian. It significantly reduce the potential of any crash at first.
The roundabout intersections I'm referring to are the ones which were built as a regular right angle intersection, but then, some "bright" mind decided to put a circular obstacle in the center to obstruct traffic to slow it down from the posted speed limit. These were formerly intersections controlled by two-way stop signs but now are needlessly controlled by four-way stop signs and the round obstroction device.

Quote:
Second, speed is a factor of causing crashes. As an example, vehicle going through a traffic signal may run into a yellow-light trap where you run the red end-up with a T-boned, or stop really hard end-up with a hard rear-end.
The crash would be caused by the violation of the red light or the failure to maintaince appropriate distance, not by the speed. The few crashes caused purely by speed are those where drivers are driving too fast for conditions such as rain, snow, ice, dangerous curves and end up losing control.

Speed is a major factor in damages once the crash takes place, but, usually, it does not cause the crash in the first place.

Quote:
Roundabout operation forces every driver to slow down, and eliminate that stop-or-go trap that a signal has.
That would be fine in a formerly-signalized intersection where a properly constructed and designed roundabout with appropriate capacity is built but not in the ad hoc traffic "calming" roundabouts that are nothing but unsafe obstructions in the middle of intersections.

A well-thought system of two-way stop signes and properly-timed traffic signals can help vehicles maintain a constant speed and safe fuel while reducing stress and emissions. Slow-down-and-speed-up or stop-and-go-traffic has the opposite effect, which is what the so-called traffic "calming" promotes.

It has also proven roundabout can reduce traffic delay and congestion on arterials. There are examples in New York, Maryland etc. Roundabout is traffic and transportation engineering sounds, even better than the red-yellow-green light.

As long as they are designed to promote the free flow of traffic at safe and constant speeds, they can have that effect. Here in Coral Gables, two signal-controlled intersections in Segovia Street (a block from each other) were totally rebuilt with roundabouts and the traffic flows much better now. That's totally different than the poorly-designed and obstructionist roundabouts used by traffic "calming" in intersections where they never belonged and which are best controlled by a two-way stop sign that causes stop in the secondary road and leaves traffic to flow unhindered in the preferential road.

Quote:
For anyone interest, this is a good site to learn about roundabout:
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersect...pects/long.cfm
What I'm referring to when criticizing round abouts is what your link says is NOT a modern roundabout:

"Neighborhood circle: traffic calming countermeasure, usually no traffic control, location would not likely warrant a traffic signal, might be in lieu of a 2-way or 4-way stop"


Last edited by El Tiburon; April 30th, 2010 at 08:45 PM.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #296
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We don't have Zebras on junctions in the UK. Unless there's a red light, pedestrians have no power, whatsoever.
What's this then?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...01714&t=k&z=19
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Old April 30th, 2010, 10:32 PM   #297
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Quote:
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We don't have Zebras on junctions in the UK.
If we can consider this place as a junction and zebra crossing as a part of it, I would say: yes, you have.



Quote:
Unless there's a red light, pedestrians have no power, whatsoever
Regardless of traffic rules, I have never seen a driver who wouldn't stop before zebra seeing a pedestrian waiting by the crossing, in particular before that one with yellow bulbs. I mean driver in Britain, of course. However it's more matter of politeness than any rule.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 04:48 PM   #298
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Joure Junction, a major traffic congestion problem, where 2 highways meet (From the direction of the Enclosure Dam and Emmeloord) and continue as one in the direction of Heerenveen. It can't handle the amount of traffic anymore:



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Old May 2nd, 2010, 06:40 AM   #299
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Try and figure this out:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...affic%20circle

That's how to navigate a multi-lane traffic circle in Alberta, Canada.
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Old May 2nd, 2010, 10:33 AM   #300
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Try and figure this out:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...affic%20circle

That's how to navigate a multi-lane traffic circle in Alberta, Canada.
why on earth would you design it so you can go all the way round in either lane. You have just made one of the safest intersections one of the most dangerous.
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