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Old September 8th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #781
keokiracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
and I'm sure there are people here who are prepared to tell me that I'm an idiot, but it just seems to be common sense that if you ask people to get into the left lane entering a roundabout because they're going 270 degrees, and then in a short time they're going to need to cross TWO lanes to make a right, you're just asking for trouble.
You don't have to move a single lane.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 05:51 PM   #782
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FOUR lane roundabout in Affi, Italy:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=aff...280.42,,0,7.03
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Old September 8th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
You don't have to move a single lane.
If lanes are like that I would like the two lane roundabouts. But most aren't like that. Usually we only have single lane roundabouts around here. We don't have space for bigger ones anyway.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
- left blinker when getting in, because you are merging towards left (your vehicle hits the dotted line with its left side)


You're not changing lanes like you are on a motorway, you're entering a different road, it's a T-junction.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 06:16 PM   #785
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few examples from Skopje, Macedonia













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Old September 8th, 2013, 07:48 PM   #786
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4-lane roundabout in Arad, Romania, with a pedestrian crossing inside as a bonus:

http://goo.gl/maps/uFVdm
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Old September 8th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentSteele View Post


You're not changing lanes like you are on a motorway, you're entering a different road, it's a T-junction.
Main distinction between a lane merge and a T-junction is that in a T-Junction you can go left or right (although with some limits, sometimes), in a lane merge the road design forces the driver to join a specific lane.

1) T-junction:
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....267.23,,0,6.21

1.1) T-junction with mandatory right turn:
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....26.89,,0,-6.26

2) Lane merge:
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....,359.26,,0,4.2


The difference in design is that in an T-j the minor road joins completely the intersection area, while in the second case the minor road is physically split into one-way lanes before meeting the main road, and then these lanes are treated separately.

A roundabout implies physical separation of the lanes: it is designed exactly as in (2), although spaces may be more compact.
That's why I classify them as merges and not as intersections; which changes the way blinkers should be used.

In (1) and (1.1) I use the right blinker, in (2) I use the left one: right-blinking would have no meaning, since there's no "right" to go to

Many people see roundabouts as intersections because, prior to roundaboutizazion, they were intersections... but they're no more.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:03 PM   #788
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I think you're wrong. I never turn on left blinker when entering a roundabout.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I think you're wrong. I never turn on left blinker when entering a roundabout.
Perhaps you are wrong. Perhaps it's not a known habit in your country. Perhaps you've got long queues at your roundabouts. But I can see the system in the UK, France and Netherlands working...
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #790
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In theory one should do it. In real life, if the roundabout is tiny it adds more confusion than what it solves, so better just signal the exit.

I used to always left signal when entering, but I saw it confused other drivers, because when I removed the blinker they believed I had changed my idea and would have gone out immediately... and they always cut me. So, I turned to the fail-safe policy of just signalling the exit.
A bit less flow-friendly, yes, but we must accept the fact that in tiny roundabouts spaces don't really allow great flows...

I left signal only if the roundabout is wide enough. To be more precise: wide enough means that even if the others go, they will have enough time to clear the way without posing dangers to me (it's a matter of seconds, not minutes).


But, I repeat: that left blinker is meant as "I'm joining the roundabout", not as "I'm going to the road which is on my left" as it would be in an intersection. There's no left in a roundabout
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Perhaps you are wrong. Perhaps it's not a known habit in your country. Perhaps you've got long queues at your roundabouts. But I can see the system in the UK, France and Netherlands working...
I don't think he's talking about the same thing you are

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I understand what you mean, but roundabouts are nothing like that. The road may be curved slightly to the right to give an extra visual cue and to make it easier, but it is not an entry lane. There is no acceleration lane from which you can join the roundabout lane, there is just a regular T junction with a "special", looped one-way road. If anything, you'd blink right because you're turning right, but since this road is special and one-way, that's neither necessary nor helpful.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:09 PM   #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
So, I turned to the fail-safe policy of just signalling the exit.
On rare occasions when I signal entering a roundabout (for whatever reason) I actually turn on my right indicator, not the left one (in a right-hand country like Slovenia, of course).
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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #793
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On rare occasions when I signal entering a roundabout (for whatever reason) I actually turn on my right indicator, not the left one (in a right-hand country like Slovenia, of course).
To what extent? Unless you're going out at the next exit, you're not going to the right of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentSteele View Post
I understand what you mean, but roundabouts are nothing like that. The road may be curved slightly to the right to give an extra visual cue and to make it easier, but it is not an entry lane. There is no acceleration lane from which you can join the roundabout lane, there is just a regular T junction with a "special", looped one-way road. If anything, you'd blink right because you're turning right, but since this road is special and one-way, that's neither necessary nor helpful.
Well, even if their shape might not resemble that (spaces too tight to develop a full acceleration lane), they are in fact entry lanes. The whole point of roundabouts is to avoid turns and oblige vehicles to follow the same direction of travel.

I'll try to describe my view of the difference between an intersection and a lane merge.
In an intersection, all joining roads end at the border, and the intersection itself is the common central area, with its own rules. Then you can regulate it in many ways, you can also identify a main road through it, but in all cases there is an area where all turns happen.
In a merge there's no such area "where all roads die": the main road doesn't end there, it is continuous and virtually unaltered by the merging lane; only the minor lane ends, blending into the main road (and yielding to it).

Given this description, I see no conceptual difference among these cases, only the size:

https://maps.google.ch/maps?ll=45.41...2,70.12,,2,2.5

and smaller

https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....66.01,,1,10.51

and smaller

https://maps.google.ch/maps?ll=45.41...92.27,,0,-0.55

and smaller

https://maps.google.ch/maps?hl=en&ll...05.41,,1,-0.85

Same signage, same rules, just a different size.
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
To what extent? Unless you're going out at the next exit, you're not going to the right of anything.
Of course you're turning right, at least at most roundabouts (and yes, I'm going out at the first exit).

Last edited by Verso; September 8th, 2013 at 10:56 PM.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #795
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If you're going out at the first one, then of course you must signal right mainly to let others get in, but also to avoid bikes trying to pass you on the right.
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
If you're going out at the first one, then of course you must signal right mainly to let others get in, but also to avoid bikes trying to pass you on the right.
Which "others" are you letting in when you're the one trying to enter the roundabout, and bikes trying to overtake you on the right??? What the hell is going on in Italian roundabouts?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #797
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It's a dense situation

By "others" I mean those who are waiting to get in from the road you're going to.

In fact it can happen to have bikes trying to pass on the right
It's not so common to have drivers not giving way to traffic inside the roundabout (at least in the North), but the usage of right signal is completely unknown.
I signal that I'm going out, but almost no one gets the message, and they stop anyway.

Worst part is that almost no one signals that, so you just stand there waiting for nothing... I hate it.
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #798
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Roundabouts with traffic lights in Udine:

Piazza Medaglie d'Oro
https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Piazza...,18.94,,0,6.76

Piazzale Osoppo
https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Piazza...303.91,,0,7.68

There's a similar thing in Split, Croatia (or Solin, don't remember well).

One of the most beautiful squares in Italy it's also a roundabout:
https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Palman...,74.83,,0,7.68
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Old September 9th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
By "others" I mean those who are waiting to get in from the road you're going to.
I thought we were talking about trying to enter a roundabout, not already leaving it.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #800
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If your exit is the first one, the concepts of "entering" and "leaving the roundabout" are pretty much the same thing
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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