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Old May 18th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #241
facts212
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The growth of Barajas is superb . Just released the april numbers showing a 14,7 % passenger numbers increase over 2005 .This show that despite "bad press" , the airport is running almost perfectly , with more than 90% punctuality and increasing passenger satisfation .

MAD..........3,869,654..........14,7% over 2005

Source: http://estadisticas.aena.es/ , http://www14.aena.es/csee/ccurl/PROD200604.pdf


Quote:
I posted in another thread about how huge Barajas looked on google earth ( bigger than Atlanta and Denver ) so I'm not suprised by this. Does anyone know the rates for retail space and opportunities at AENA group airports? I dont speak Spanish and the commercial sections of the website arent all available in English.
In the 2006 Tariff ( in english) there are prices for several comercial stands for airlines.
http://www.aena.es/csee/ccurl/GUIA%2...6%20INGLES.pdf

If you are thinking about other comercial retail space inside the airport , they depends from AENA , and have been awarded after a "bid battle" . Only big and solvent companies were allowed to run .


Quote:
Well you might have the biggest terminal size in area but because your terminals are seperated it is not the world's largest terminal...
MAD T-4 alone, without it's satellite , is around the same size as Hong Kong terminal.


Feel free to expand the list with other airports above 500,000 square meters .

Take into account that only counts "passenger terminal area" . That means that no parking space , no access, no free spaces ... only under roof passenger terminal . Take into account also that if a terminal has several floors ( like MAD that has 6 floors) , every floor area in every floor counts .

Some people are surprise with the MAD numbers, because of the multi floors terminal .Other airports may looks larger but only because they are flat (1 or 2 floors ) and laberinthics.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 05:41 PM   #242
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What a chauvinistic thread indeed. To restablish some truth, here are:

Europe's busiest airports in 2005 (source):
(by total number of passengers)
1- London Heathrow: 67.9 million
2- Paris Charles de Gaulle: 53.8 million
3- Frankfurt: 52.2 million
4- Amsterdam Schiphol: 44.2 million
5- Madrid Barajas: 41.9 million

(by total plane movements: landings and take-offs)
1- Paris Charles de Gaulle: 522,619
2- Frankfurt: 490,147
3- London Heathrow: 477,888
4- Amsterdam Schiphol: 420,633
5- Madrid Barajas: 415,677

Completion of the Madrid-Barcelona high speed train link in 2007 should decrease traffic at Madrid Barajas by a few millions. There are currently 4 million people flying Madrid-Barcelona every year. It is expected that a majority of them will choose the high-speed train when the line is completed next year.

At the moment Paris Charles de Gaulle airport is said to be the European airport with the best prospects for growth in the near future due to its four independent runways. Experts say that the four runways can handle as much as 860,000 plane movement a year, which would mean 103 million passengers assuming 120 passengers per plane. According to Paris airport authorities, traffic at CDG will be in the 60-70 million range by 2010, and should reach 100 million in 2020. I can't see how Madrid Barajas could catch up with that fast growth.

As for London Heathrow, it is currently hampered by its only two runways and no possibility for expansion. If the British government allows the construction of a third runway, which is a very controversial issue (entire suburban areas north of the airport would have to be destroyed), then Heathrow could also reach the 100 million mark.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 06:01 PM   #243
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This thread is about "passenger terminal area" , not passenger numbers ... i see you didn't read it carefully .

Quote:
Madrid Barajas Airport is the World's Biggest Airport in terms of Passenger Terminal area, with 940,000 square meters ( more than 10 Millions square feets), after the opening of the new Terminal 4 complex at Madrid Barajas
But if you insist in aircrafts movements , EUROCONTROL have just release it's traffic forescast .....

Quote:
"..Madrid Barajas airport is set to become the third busiest airport in Europe by the end of 2012, overtaking London’s Heathrow and Amsterdam’s Schiphol airports in terms of IFR flights."
Source: http://www.eurocontrol.int/corporate...cast_final.pdf
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Old May 18th, 2006, 06:21 PM   #244
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Quote:
"Completion of the Madrid-Barcelona high speed train link in 2007 should decrease traffic at Madrid Barajas by a few millions. There are currently 4 million people flying Madrid-Barcelona every year. It is expected that a majority of them will choose the high-speed train when the line is completed next year"
Look at the AVE Madrid-Sevilla in 1992 . Since the opening of the line , air traffic between Madrid and Sevilla has DOUBLED.

When to cities are better connected , the business and personal links increases , consecuently the passenger numbers in all transport modes increases over the time.

Shortly after the inaguration , AVE will retract passengers from the plane , agree , but with time , as in the Madrid-Sevilla example, the air traffic will recover .

Better cities connectivity means MUCH MORE PASSENGERS for all transport modes.

PASSENGER BETWEEN MADRID-BARCELONA 2005

5 daily Altaria + 1 hotel-train

RAIL..........1,400,000..........8,4% over 2004



SPANAIR.....1,200,000..........23% over 2004

VUELING.......130,000

IBERIA..........2,800,000..........2,3%





Quote:
"At the moment Paris Charles de Gaulle airport is said to be the European airport with the best prospects for growth in the near future due to its four independent runways
New Barajas has 4 independent runaways also

MAD has no other competing airport in HUNDRES OF KILOMETERS in all directions ,unlike CDG with Orly , and others .

Last edited by facts212; May 18th, 2006 at 10:36 PM.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 06:33 PM   #245
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Actually this "size" will only be a disadvantage: Long taxi times. I'd rather go via LHR where there is much more traffic but very short taxiing distances.
That's wrong . Because of the linear configuration of the docking bay , it's much easier to dock/undock and to find and taxi to the dock stand .

Look at the pictures .In the main T4 body there are 39 positions aligned ! in the T4 satellite there are 26 alligned ! very easily accesible , with lot of room to maneover , unlike in LHR with laberintic docking areas , with slow taxing .

The taxi time from T-4 and T-4 Satellite ,to the runaways can be very low . In constrast taxi time from the old terminals it's usually long .
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Old May 19th, 2006, 11:26 AM   #246
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Barajas design

I agreed. The deisgn will increase enormously the efficency of the airport operation. It is true that the size makes the passenger walk more, but at least the linear design allows the passenger to orientate easily and also the light ant the architectural deisgn givel the terminals a confort look.

Heatrow is like the old Madrid terminals, laberynthic and horrible for the passenger specially if you are connecting. And the new T5 is horrible. from outside it looks like a warehouse, what a bad taste ( Madrid, Hong Kong Dubai ar much nicer...)
Charles de Gaulle has a lovely design but it is very complicated for the passeger and the distances are even bigger than in Madrid
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Old May 19th, 2006, 11:28 AM   #247
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NEW TERMINALS T1 T2 & T3

After the conclusion of T4 and T4S , Aena has started the restructuring of the old terminal to increase the level of confort and modernize the facilities and allow the new companies to have better levels of services.
THe project will commence this summer and the works probably by the beginning of next year.
The planned included refurbishing of the façade, facilities, false cieling, opning new skylights to increase the natural light inside etc.etc.....
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Old May 19th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernlope
And the new T5 is horrible. from outside it looks like a warehouse, what a bad taste
Given the clarity of passenger circulation at Madrid Barajas it is surprising that the BAA have taken a concept design by the same architect and turned the circulation into a maze. Madrid is what T5 should and could have been.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 01:01 PM   #249
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Something is very strange at Barajas new T4: there's absolutly no clock in the check-in zones. Why???
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 12:46 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernlope
And the new T5 is horrible. from outside it looks like a warehouse, what a bad taste ( Madrid, Hong Kong Dubai ar much nicer...)
Oh, I'm sure that the architect who designed both Madrid T4 and Heathrow T5 - exactly the same man, Lord Rogers - will be happy to discover that he has good taste only for his projects away from home !
How do you know what it will be like on the inside?

May I point out that an airport that truly shows no spectacular architectural beauty from the outside whatsoever, namely Singapore Changi, has collected the most awards for Best Airport ever since it opened.

Search a bit, for example in the UK forum, about the plans for inside Heathrow T5 and find out that it will be quite clear and spacious.

Let's wait a few years after both Madrid T4 and Heathrow T5 are open and see who gets more awards, shall we?
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 02:56 PM   #251
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At Madrid Barajas Richard Roger's concept was followed faithfully, at Heathrow T5 the architectural concept has been diluted by the BAA not least by a series of cost cutting exercises.
The Heathrow T5 thread in the UK forums has no architectural plans and the few visualisations there are quite old and do not reflect the current state of play.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:23 PM   #252
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Oh, I'm sure that the architect who designed both Madrid T4 and Heathrow T5 - exactly the same man, Lord Rogers - will be happy to discover that he has good taste only for his projects away from home !
Remember that the design of MAD T-4 was a Partnership between 4 mayor consultancies:

"The project for Terminal 4 at Barajas Airport was won in competition by a consortium of Richard Rogers Partnership, the Spanish practice Estudio Lamela and two engineering companies TPS (UK) and Initec (SPAIN) in 1997"

Richard Rogers himself had almost no role in the airport design . The leader of the Richard Rogers Patneship team is Simon Smithson who moved to live in Madrid since the begining . The apportation of Richard Rogers Partnership was the overall design concept .

The implementation design were handled by Estudio Lamela and Initec (Ineco) . Ineco is the Engineering Consultancy entity of AENA , the owner of the airport . Ineco had a MAYOR role in the design and construction of the airport . Look at their montly bulletin to learn more .

www.ineco.es

Ineco provides airport construction consultancy to lots of other airports worldwide .

The experience of Richard Rogers on the long design process, 14 years , of LHR T-5 was the mayor factor for their inclusion on the MAD T-4 proyect . Paradoxicaly the MAD T4 concept is more "modern" than the LHR T5 , despite been constructed 2 years earlier ! .

Also the Madrid Barajas had much lesser Space constraints ( mayor problem of LHR T5 design) . Unlike in LHR , in MAD T4 there weren't excesive cost constraints . In Spain the cost of construction is usually half of in norther Europe .

Very interesting interview of Richard Rogers in The Scotsman .

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=200552003

"He wonders why Madrid can build a brand new airport in five years (including a ten-kilometre underground rail link) but his plans for Heathrow’s fifth terminal have been on the drawing board for more than 14 years."

"Lord Rogers suggests two explanations for this deficiency. First: "Where we spend a vast of amount of time reducing bits and pieces by pennies they (the Spanish) say ‘look, get it done on time and the money will control itself’. And more often than not they are right.""



Quote:
Let's wait a few years after both Madrid T4 and Heathrow T5 are open and see who gets more awards, shall we?
Madrid has already collected several mayor awards , both architectural and for it's design .

Studio Lamela , www.lamela.com , had a mayor role on the daily design and construction process . Per example Richard rogers originally planned to use a metalic roof inside the terminal . Studio Lamela opposed arguing it was a very cold design for Spain , and change the design in favor of a Bamboo Roof , that is one of the landmark of the airport , it's magnificent bamboo roof .

Bamboo roof photo:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0987148/L/

Here there is an podcast interview with Lamela son (broken english), talking about MAD T4 design .

http://media.libsyn.com/media/audioi...n06_lamela.MP3

http://in-madrid.com/pod.html
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 05:10 PM   #253
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Whatever... it still can't rival Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok... and don't forget when Beijing's Terminal 3 is done, it won't be the biggest anymore...
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:40 PM   #254
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Quote:
SPANAIR.....1,200,000..........23% over 2004
You mean Scandinavian Airlines, yeah?
Go SAS!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:45 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymond_tung88
Whatever... it still can't rival Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok... and don't forget when Beijing's Terminal 3 is done, it won't be the biggest anymore...
Madrid T-4 alone , without it satellite , its bigger than Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok .

Hear to the Lamela architec talking about MAD T4 been "a little bit bigger ..." than Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok

http://media.libsyn.com/media/audioi...n06_lamela.MP3

At 12 minutes 15 seconds , the journalist ask:

Question: I think it's the largest building in Europe

T4 Architect : Yes, yes ... probably in the World , because when I was visiting Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok , at that time it was the most important (bigger) building built in history , and this ( MAD T4 main terminal ) is a little bit bigger .



The main terminal 4 alone has 470,000m² , as you can read here:
http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/rende...IDs=1,4,24,296

The satellite (T4S) add anothers 290,000m² and the parking building next to T4 is 309,000m² ( parking building not included in the 940,000 m2 number).

When both LHR T5 and beijing will opens both will match Madrid Barajas with around 1,000,000 m2 each in Passenger Terminal Area .
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:48 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymond_tung88
Whatever... it still can't rival Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok... and don't forget when Beijing's Terminal 3 is done, it won't be the biggest anymore...


1) this is a subjective opinion on your part

2) Madrid's new terminal, IMO, wipes the floor with the more mediocre designs of those two Chinese terminals.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:11 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by facts_212
Madrid T-4 alone , without it satellite , its bigger than Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok .

Hear to the Lamela architec talking about MAD T4 been "a little bit bigger ..." than Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok

http://media.libsyn.com/media/audioi...n06_lamela.MP3

At 12 minutes 15 seconds , the journalist ask:

Question: I think it's the largest building in Europe

T4 Architect : Yes, yes ... probably in the World , because when I was visiting Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok , at that time it was the most important (bigger) building built in history , and this ( MAD T4 main terminal ) is a little bit bigger .



The main terminal 4 alone has 470,000m² , as you can read here:
http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/rende...IDs=1,4,24,296

The satellite (T4S) add anothers 290,000m² and the parking building next to T4 is 309,000m² ( parking building not included in the 940,000 m2 number).

When both LHR T5 and beijing will opens both will match Madrid Barajas with around 1,000,000 m2 each in Passenger Terminal Area .

The total area of single passenger terminal of HKIA is 570,000 sq m

http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/aboutus/facts.html

Which one is bigger if compared with T-4 alone????
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:11 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff
You mean Scandinavian Airlines, yeah?
Go SAS!
Yes Spanair is SAS , unfortunatly . Because of that Spanair get the oldest McDonnell Douglas on Europe with an average age of 17 Years !!! . That's a shame .

Here Spanair planes are the oldest on service in Spain . While Iberia , Air Europa , Easyjet, etc, have very young fleets , SAS bring here very old and crappy planes . The seats at SAS Spanair planes SMELLS !!! . I have never see this in any other plane in Spain .

AENA because the low quality of SAS Spanair planes didn't granted them space on new MAD T4 . Spanair is in the oldest part of Barajas , T-1 . SAS Spanair went to tribunals against AENA wise decision . Recently the judge have failed in favor of AENA . AENA has stated that NEVER SAS Spanair will be granted space in T4 .

Constantly SAS Spanair planes ,because of it's age , have technical problems . The Spanish pilot association has warned against low cost airlines like SAS Spanair .
Average McDonnell Douglas SAS Spanair age is 17 Years !
http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/?...op&opp=Spanair

Next year Iberia will retire it's remainings McDonnell Douglas and Boeings ,completly, and will only fly an all Airbus fleet .

Not only that , but recently SAS has been investigated for manipulating Spanair accounts to try to improve the SAS group numbers . Read the SAS statement trying to reflect responsabilities here:
http://wpy.observer.se/wpyfs/00/00/0...10/wkr0001.pdf

Staff , you shouldn't be proud of SAS . Here we aren't.

It's a shame for scandinavia to bring to Spain those old crappy planes . In my opinion this practices would make us rethink the "free european air space" .
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:13 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui


1) this is a subjective opinion on your part

2) Madrid's new terminal, IMO, wipes the floor with the more mediocre designs of those two Chinese terminals.
It is also your subjective opinion!!

IMO, HKIA, Singapore Changi, Bangkok New Airport and Beijing New Aiport are better than Madrid's new terminal
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:18 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicksonlai
It is also your subjective opinion!!

IMO, HKIA, Singapore Changi, Bangkok New Airport and Beijing New Aiport are better than Madrid's new terminal
And I like blonds, you like brunettes.

I already stated as an OPINION what my OPINION was.

Round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows.
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