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Old June 28th, 2006, 01:03 AM   #61
The Urban Politician
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headcase
Please do not lie, it does not portray anyone in a positive light.

But I also believe that just people in the immediate vicinity of building should not have as much of a say in a building's design as they do. Most of the times the arguments they put forth are very selfish in nature, and ignore what is probably best for the city at large. Now I don't know what the land in question is zoned for, but the city is zoned the way it is for a reason, and it should not be down zoned just because some empty nester just moved in from the burbs, and doesn't want their view blocked.

^ EXACTLY! I really hope a large number of you show up for this meeting
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Old June 28th, 2006, 02:02 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrintersRowBoiler
Don't you think the people who own property next to this building and/or live in the shadows of this building SHOULD be the ones voicing their opinions at the NEIGHBORHOOD meetings? I could understand a 40 story building, but this is an extreme building. Don't get me wrong, I am a proponent of it and I live within 1,500 feet of it. However, I think the purpose of this meeting is to hear what the NEIGHBORS, taxpayers, and voters feel and not what college students from the outskirts of town like Jefferson Park or Schaumburg think.
First of all it's a public meeting, secondly; this is the Central Business District and it involves the City of Chicago skyline, not the printers row skyline. This is an international city, with an international skyline, and the voices of a few pesky NIMBY's shouldn't be the only ones heard.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 02:47 AM   #63
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Now I was poking around the city zoning site (parts of which are not working currently, where is Chicago103?) But it looks like the 830 site is zoned for DX-16 or possibly DX-12 depending on where exactly the floorplate is. What I couldn't find out, since the site is acting up, is what those numbers mean.

Can someone help me out here?
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Old June 28th, 2006, 03:21 AM   #64
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head -

17-4-0103 DX, Downtown Mixed-Use District

17-4-0103-A The DX, Downtown Mixed-Use district is primarily intended to accommodate office, commercial, public, institutional and residential development.

17-4-0103-B The district promotes vertical mixed-use (residential/nonresidential) projects that contain active ground-floor uses.

17-4-0103-C The DX district can be combined with the dash 3, dash 5, dash 7, dash 10, dash 12 or dash 16 bulk and density designations (see Sec. 17-4-0101).(Amend. Coun. J. 3-9-05, p. 44383.)
------------------------------------------------------
-12 Dwelling units: 115
Efficiency units: 75
SRO units: 60
Max Base FAR: 12

-16 Dwelling units: 100
Efficiency units: 65
SRO units: 50
Max Base FAR: 16
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Old June 28th, 2006, 03:58 AM   #65
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The numbers following the DX is the FAR. In laymans term, it is the multiplier for total SF of allowable space per SF of footprint. For example, if you have a 10,000 SF lot (about a quarter acre), you can have a 160,000 SF building.

I am in support of this building. I may make it out to the meeting tomorrow to support it if I can get my stuff taken care of at work. Although I am a Printers Row resident, the neighborhood for the proposed building is not considered Printers Row. I do not think you will be seeing Peter Ziv tomorrow. While many people are ignorant and may think that this building will oversaturate the market (it will not, Michigan Ave. buildings are rare and precious), 80+ stories is a lot. I think anyone who wants to come down and support what they believe in should - after all it is a public meeting. What I don't like is people lying about where you live and taking the true residents voice away. You might think it affects everyone. To most people it is a small piece to the puzzle of the skyline. It is a much larger impact to the neighbors and that is why they received invitations in the mail.

Also, this building could be a HORRIBLE building - we know little about it. Bigger isn't always better. Some people are ignorant to traffic problems and overcrowding. But it can be a problem. For example - parking could be a problem if 250 public stalls are lost and they provide less stalls than units. The place could give little back to the community - it should have retail and be easy on the eyes at the street level. It could be neon green. It could be a RETIREMENT COMMUNITY! Now I know these are not issues here, but there is more to the project than the number of stories. If an 80 story building is not built, a 50 story probably would be built with a bigger floorplate and it would have the same problems.
I also agree that people with technical knowledge can add to the meeting. But honestly, without any experience beyond college and maybe 15 years of city living in the outskirts of town shouldn't make someone a professional in city living. The city knows what is good urban development (that's why there is a zoning ordinance and plan commission). I wish people would just come to these meetings with open minds - proponents and opponents.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 04:47 AM   #66
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Old June 28th, 2006, 04:50 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrintersRowBoiler
The numbers following the DX is the FAR. In laymans term, it is the multiplier for total SF of allowable space per SF of footprint. For example, if you have a 10,000 SF lot (about a quarter acre), you can have a 160,000 SF building.
What I don't like is people lying about where you live and taking the true residents voice away. You might think it affects everyone. To most people it is a small piece to the puzzle of the skyline. It is a much larger impact to the neighbors and that is why they received invitations in the mail.

Also, this building could be a HORRIBLE building - we know little about it. Bigger isn't always better. Some people are ignorant to traffic problems and overcrowding. But it can be a problem. For example - parking could be a problem if 250 public stalls are lost and they provide less stalls than units. The place could give little back to the community - it should have retail and be easy on the eyes at the street level. It could be neon green. It could be a RETIREMENT COMMUNITY! Now I know these are not issues here, but there is more to the project than the number of stories. If an 80 story building is not built, a 50 story probably would be built with a bigger floorplate and it would have the same problems.

I also agree that people with technical knowledge can add to the meeting. But honestly, without any experience beyond college and maybe 15 years of city living in the outskirts of town shouldn't make someone a professional in city living. The city knows what is good urban development (that's why there is a zoning ordinance and plan commission). I wish people would just come to these meetings with open minds - proponents and opponents.
Thank you to both ardecila and PrintersRow for the zoning information.

PRB -- I agree with alot of your points, there is more to a building than height, and some around here make it sound like that is all they care about, but having gotten to know some of them personally, I know there is more to it than that.

I also agree that in general the city knows what good urban development is, but it seems to me that the local community, and the alderman, have entirely too much input into the process. The citizens tend only to be interested in what they think will effect their property values, and alderman is an elected official that will usually do what it takes to stay in office. I hate the fact that those two factors have so much of a say in what gets built. Citizens don't want it + Alderman wanting votes = bad city planning.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 06:42 PM   #68
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I just received this email. This is why we have to show our numbers and support this project.


From: South Loop
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: 830 S. Michigan Ave. Meeting - Jones Prep - 6/29


Renaissant Development is proposing an 80-story building, 850 feet
tall, at 830 South Michigan. A public meeting will be held on this
Thursday night at Jones HS, beginning at 6.30. We encourage all South
Loop Neighbors to attend and make their concerns known, particularly
to Alderman Haithcock.

This new building would straddle the alley, preserving only the front
40 feet of the old YWCA building fronting Michigan. It would contain
376 condos and 34,000 square feet of retail space, plus parking for
both.

South Loop Neighbors and the Department of Planning and Development
worked for four years on the Near South Community Plan, adopted in
2004 with the alderman's support, to guide development in our
neighborhood. Both that plan and the draft guidelines for the
Michigan Avenue landmark district would only allow a building 425
feet tall--HALF the height this developer proposes!

Our alderman is very responsive to objections from the community, but
she must hear them loud and clear at this meeting! I encourage you
to ask why our two-year-old plan is being ignored so completely in
discussions of this development.


If you cannot attend this meeting, PLEASE send an email or letter to
Alderman Haithcock expressing your concerns.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 06:46 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrintersRowBoiler
Some people are ignorant to traffic problems and overcrowding. But it can be a problem. For example - parking could be a problem if 250 public stalls are lost and they provide less stalls than units.
^ I actually agree with most of your last post, but you lost me here.

When it comes down to it, PRB, there is no way people who want to live downtown should expect to find easy parking and for there not to be traffic and congestion. That expectation is flat out unreasonable. 99% of America (including a vast majority of the Chicago area) has ample parking and less congestion. If people expect to be able to park their cars freely and drive without encountering a large number of people and other cars, then they should look to move elsewhere. There really is no argument to this.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 06:48 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BVictor1
South Loop Neighbors and the Department of Planning and Development
worked for four years on the Near South Community Plan, adopted in
2004 with the alderman's support, to guide development in our
neighborhood. Both that plan and the draft guidelines for the
Michigan Avenue landmark district would only allow a building 425
feet tall--HALF the height this developer proposes!

Our alderman is very responsive to objections from the community, but
she must hear them loud and clear at this meeting! I encourage you
to ask why our two-year-old plan is being ignored so completely in
discussions of this development.


If you cannot attend this meeting, PLEASE send an email or letter to
Alderman Haithcock expressing your concerns.
^ Funny how that same organization falls back on the plan that they created when it doesn't inconvenience them.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 07:05 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrintersRowBoiler
Don't you think the people who own property next to this building and/or live in the shadows of this building SHOULD be the ones voicing their opinions at the NEIGHBORHOOD meetings? I could understand a 40 story building, but this is an extreme building. Don't get me wrong, I am a proponent of it and I live within 1,500 feet of it. However, I think the purpose of this meeting is to hear what the NEIGHBORS, taxpayers, and voters feel and not what college students from the outskirts of town like Jefferson Park or Schaumburg think.
Its a public meeting in a public building and open to everyone. Often, I get shot down at some of these "community" meetings because I am not a condo owner in the immediate area. I do not come from a wealthy family and am currently moving through school and fully inted on living in the central area after I have found a carrer. I have an education regaurding architecture and urban planning, and quite frankley have lived within city limits longer than many of the South Loop's residents, many of which are young proffesionals or married couples from suburbia or beyond. While, I fully agree they have every right to voice thier opinons, I feel my knowledge based argument should be heard on the same level as the yuppie transplant lawer who has lived next door to the surface lot for 6 months. The new resident NIMBY having a greater control over developemnt of a world class city center then someone who has a educated argument otherwise, quite frankley is bull shit. Although I agree lieing about where I live is not moral, but it does level the playing field for the voice of reason. I have told the truth about the location of my current residence in prevous meetings, and I have been told to sit down and shut up by angry NIMBYs. I am however, a former downtown resident, and lived on the boundry beteewn wards 42 (Naturas) and 2 (Heithcock). I did vote for Ald. Naturas and Daley in the 2003 election, so as far as stuff in the Central Area goes, I feel I have every right comment on it and make myself herd.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 07:54 PM   #72
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It's great to see people are fired up about this project. Speak loudly and clearly and unapologetically at the meeting. Say firmly that "This is the Central Area."

Make it clear that this building and the Central Area as a whole are citywide importance. Self-interested neighbors should not cheapen our Central Area.

Clap loudly at the right points and cheer with your voice when appropriate. Haithcock responds to that type of thing, as does the press. Even if you don't feel like speaking, raise your hand and say unapologetically, "I support this project." Everyone who can make it, please show up!
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:21 PM   #73
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What is irritating me is the ignorance that some people have to this development. I feel that people on this site think bigger is better and cream their pants everytime they see that a new highrise is built regardless of what it may bring to the neighborhood. The truth is we know little about this development but everyone is fired up about making sure it gets built.
South Loop Neighbors is a highly regarded group that the alderman and planning departments have put a lot of faith into. It represents a large group of people that live in the South Loop. They are very fair in their assessments of all projects and often support projects that may not be desirable to the Nimbys (i.e. Burnham Pointe). I am confident that they have looked at this project from every angle and cite issues in their e-mail beyond the obvious height of the building. I have been to several of their meetings and many projects presented have been well received by the group. They are not ignorant NIMBYs.
While I agree that people should not expect parking downtown, plenty of businessmen park their cars in the lots in the South Loop (Probably a majority of the clientele). It is important to maintain parking available to the clients. If these lots didn't exist, many of these businessmen would never cross the barrier of Congress Parkway. Losing the stalls would not only hurt the retail in the South Loop, but also would discourage rich business executives from setting up shop in the Loop and push them out to Hoffman Estates, Naperville, etc. While a progressive approach is good for the city, we need to preserve its characteristics, neighborhoods, and landmark buildings.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:28 PM   #74
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:33 PM   #75
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:45 PM   #76
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Something else I don't understand is the criticism for the alderman listening to her voters. You claim all she cares about is votes. That is exactly what she should think about. She is an elected official and should listen to the residents in her ward. THat is the way the system has been set up - a democracy. The alderman should not base her decision on residents outside of her ward. Why don't we let New York residents voice their concern?
Also, many have said that this development affects everyone.
Will it add much needed homes in the South Loop? No - it may actually overinflate the market.
Will it meet the need of adding units to Michigan Avenue? No - Metropolitan Tower will be glad to sell you a unit as well as the Columbian and 1000 S Michigan (if it gets built).
Will it raise the city skyline to an upper echelon? No - it already is revered as arguably the best in the US.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 08:49 PM   #77
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Old June 28th, 2006, 09:38 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrintersRowBoiler
Something else I don't understand is the criticism for the alderman listening to her voters. You claim all she cares about is votes. That is exactly what she should think about. She is an elected official and should listen to the residents in her ward. THat is the way the system has been set up - a democracy. The alderman should not base her decision on residents outside of her ward. Why don't we let New York residents voice their concern?
Also, many have said that this development affects everyone.
Will it add much needed homes in the South Loop? No - it may actually overinflate the market.
Will it meet the need of adding units to Michigan Avenue? No - Metropolitan Tower will be glad to sell you a unit as well as the Columbian and 1000 S Michigan (if it gets built).
Will it raise the city skyline to an upper echelon? No - it already is revered as arguably the best in the US.
I understand where you are coming from, and I know that the Alderman should listen to the voters, it is their job. I guess have a direct problem when (and I'm not sure this is the case here) is when the a small percentage of the voters and alderman get zoning changed. Now I don't know how many people live in the ward, but it is usually the case that a small percentage of the people scream the loudest. Because they are heard the elected officials tend to believe that is what the general public wants. If I had to bet, I would say that the majority of the people in the ward could careless about this project, and so don't say anything about it. The people that are historically heard on topics like this are usually a small percentage of the voters. They, like most on this forum you and I included, think they know what is best for the general population. Of course it is just their opinion, and it is based on what is important to them.

Also, many have said that this development affects everyone.
My personal opinion is that all development in Chicago effects all that live here. And I'm just sick of projects that get squashed or killed because of a few people that speak up against a project, vs the many who don't say anything. I am interested in development, and learning more about how and why things are done. I will be moving into the central area in the next 24 - 36 months (for full disclosure I currently live in Ukie Village). But to be completely honest, I care more about what happens outside my door, than outside my window.

Will it add much needed homes in the South Loop? No - it may actually overinflate the market.
Well if the developer cannot move the units, they will not get the loan, no building goes up. Approving it doesn't' mean it will go up.

Will it meet the need of adding units to Michigan Avenue? No - Metropolitan Tower will be glad to sell you a unit as well as the Columbian and 1000 S Michigan (if it gets built).
See above
Will it raise the city skyline to an upper echelon? No - it already is revered as arguably the best in the US.
Just on a personal note I want that "arguably" to go away.
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Old June 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM   #79
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"What is irritating me is the ignorance that some people have to this development. I feel that people on this site think bigger is better and cream their pants everytime they see that a new highrise is built regardless of what it may bring to the neighborhood."

PRB, there is no better argument against you than your own words.

Just take a look at what you are writing.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 02:38 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loopy
PRB - Did you receive that email from South Loop Neighbors as well? I am just curious if that is their official stand or if it was written by a member to the mailing list citing past positions of SLN.
No, I did not get that e-mail. However, if it was sent, it probably was blocked as junk mail.
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