The Renderings Thread

[Eno]

One problem with the Manhattan-density fantasy is how exactly will people get around? Unless we start building two more subway lines asap there is no way the transit system and the roads can handle double the number of residents.

[Bisonblight]

I don't think so; not by a long chalk. Chicago is a lot bigger. Maybe you just have to be there to get a feel for it. Why bother even worrying about these comparisons? We are who we are and that should be good enough! There is more to a city than bricks and mortar.

I think we were talking about the density of our downtowns. Toronto is denser than Chicago. There are simply more people living downtown. I wasn't trying to start a pissing context or anything. Just stating a fact. Chicago isn't even the second densest in the US. Last I checked, that was San Francisco.

[Ramako]

The Downtown Relief Line will (hopefully) have been built long before downtown Toronto doubles its density.

[Eno]

Chicago is denser in terms of buildings, but not necessarily residents as far as downtown goes.

[Innsertnamehere]

we certainly haven't beat Chicago yet, but if the boom continues at this rate until 2017-2018, with all proposals at that time completed, of course with a couple new tallest buildings, and 1 over 350m, I think we will have them beat. if the boom earlier, we will probably surpass them in the earlu 2030s. Yew York of course is in a whole other league.

in the meantime, I'd say toronto has beat Atlanta in this boom, along with LA, and if all the proposed buildings get built, It'll have beat out all beat all western countries skylines exept for New York and chicago.

[Innsertnamehere]

Edit: wrong thread

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Eno

One problem with the Manhattan-density fantasy is how exactly will people get around? Unless we start building two more subway lines asap there is no way the transit system and the roads can handle double the number of residents.

It's a given that we'd need more subway as population density in the core increases. We'll eventually get a group at City Hall that will get it done.

[Guy Typing]

Rob Ford:

“I’m not going to support the LRTs, I’ll tell you that right now. I’m going to do everything in my power to try to stop it,” he said.

“This is an election issue. Obviously the campaign starts now. I’m willing to take anyone to fight streetcars against subways in the next election, and I can’t wait for that.”

“The people of the city have spoken loud and clear. They want subways folks. They want subways, subways, subways,” he told councillors.

“People hate the St. Clair. They hate these streetcars. You can call them what they want. People want subways folks. They want subways, subways. They don’t want these damned streetcars blocking up our city,” shouted the mayor.

It may cost more than LRT, but building more subway lines is really what this city needs as it's just going to get bigger and bigger. We'll see what happens...

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Guy Typing

It may cost more than LRT, but building more subway lines is really what this city needs as it's just going to get bigger and bigger. We'll see what happens...

I agree and welcome aboard. Subways cost what they cost, but that's what this city needs on many of our major streets. We need the DRL, we need a Queen Line, we need an Eglinton line, and that's just for starters. LRT is a band aid solution that's only going to prolong the inevitable: subways.

Money does exist, but it's the distribution of tax dollars that's bankrupting cities. Don't load most of the responsibility for services on municipalities, but deny them taxation powers. If Ottawa wants to take in most of the taxes, they have to start paying for some of the services we need. No wonder our cities have no money. The political power in countries is shifting from national capitals to cities. Canadian mayors need to employ a common front and force Ottawa to:

A. Give up some taxation powers to the municipalities/provinces and/or
B. Start paying for most of the transit needs of Canadian cities.

The status quo is untenable. Cash strapped municipalities need to force Ottawa's hand. If our current mayors/City councillors aren't up to the task of confronting Ottawa, they need to step aside so others up to the task can.

[Mercenary]

Toronto has one of the worst funded Public Transportation Systems in North America.

If Toronto wants to compete with the big boys like Chicago, New York or Sydney. It needs to get its act together and build proper Transportation Infrastructure.

Toronto Subways are a joke. No wonder the TTC is called Take the Car.

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

If Toronto wants to compete with the big boys like Chicago, New York or Sydney. It needs to get its act together and build proper Transportation Infrastructure.

Sydney is a "big boy"? And the CTA is hardly worth emulating.

[Taller, Better]

I don't think Toronto's subways are a joke at all; I'm actually surprised that this has become the general belief of our city. It is a very good system, but just hasn't been allowed to grow like it should have over the past generation, due to being starved by rather greedy senior governments that are happy to fund transit anywhere other than Toronto.

And, I never thought I'd see "Sydney" in someone's list of "big boys" when it comes to transit. Sydney doesn't even have a subway system!!! Having bits and pieces of their train system travel underground for a bit does not make a "subway". They have an excellent suburban train system, because Sydney is much more of a suburban city than Toronto.

Have you ever been on the subway in Chicago?

Brace yourself for when you visit London. It is an extensive system, but the actual ride on the narrow crowded non-airconditioned cars is awful:





You are just going to have to trust me that it is nothing like this:

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I don't think Toronto's subways are a joke at all; I'm actually surprised that this has become the general belief of our city. It is a very good system, but just hasn't been allowed to grow like it should have over the past generation, due to being starved by rather greedy senior governments that are happy to fund transit anywhere other than Toronto.

And, I never thought I'd see "Sydney" in someone's list of "big boys" when it comes to transit. Sydney doesn't even have a subway system!!! Having bits and pieces of their train system travel underground for a bit does not make a "subway". They have an excellent suburban train system, because Sydney is much more of a suburban city than Toronto.

Have you ever been on the subway in Chicago?

Brace yourself for when you visit London. It is an extensive system, but the actual ride on the narrow crowded non-airconditioned cars is awful:





You are just going to have to trust me that it is nothing like this:

Hehe...I think it could be the banner that influenced me to include Sydney

[Taller, Better]

I was thinking maybe it was too many Foster's Lagers!

[spearhead]

Nice building designs! I think just need more unique architectural designs though such as the Marilyn twin towers in mississauga, something with round shaped structures as well.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Hehe...I think it could be the banner that influenced me to include Sydney

It was a nice photo. Btw, no city in Australia has a subway yet. They do beat us in intercity rail though. GO Train is puny compared to the equivalent in Sydney or Melbourne. Regarding London's Underground, Taller is correct in that Toronto trains are far more spacious/comfortable but the size of their system absolutely dwarfs what we have. The TTC could quadruple its km of track and the London Underground would still be considerably bigger.

The Big Boys, by km of Subway Track


01. Shanghai-----425
02. London-----402
03. Seoul -----389.3
04. Beijing-----372.0
05. New York-----337
06. Berlin-----331
07. Moscow-----305.7
08. Madrid-----293
09. Paris-----215
10. Guangzhou-----215.0

11. Tokyo-----195.1
12. Delhi-----189.63
13. Shenzhen-----178.4
14. Mexico City -----176.8
15. Valencia-----175
16. Hong Kong-----174.4
17. Chicago-----173
18. Washington, D.C.-----171
19. Copenhagen-----170
20. San Francisco-----167

In regards to subways, if we want to rival the Valencias and Copenhagens of this world our subway would have to triple in size. According to Wikipedia, Toronto is 50th biggest in the world by track length. We're not even largest in Canada, we're 3rd! When places like Newcastle, UK and Bucharest, Romania have more track than Toronto something's terribly wrong.

48. Montreal-----69.2
49. Vancouver-----68.7
50. Toronto-----68.3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems

[Ramako]

How is Vancouver ahead of Toronto on that list? It doesn't even have a subway. Clearly they must be counting LRT as part of the "metro system", in which case Toronto will be adding about 70km over the next decade with the Spadina extension and the Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs. That would bring us to about 140km.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by isaidso

In regards to subways, if we want to rival the Valencias and Copenhagens of this world our subway would have to triple in size. According to Wikipedia, Toronto is 50th biggest in the world by track length. We're not even largest in Canada, we're 3rd! When places like Newcastle, UK and Bucharest, Romania have more track than Toronto something's terribly wrong.

Don't forget though that Valencia and Copehhagen both have commuter/metro hybrids. The Copenhagen "metro" is a tiny light metro system and the bulk of their rapid transit is the S-Tog which is basically a very high frequency, grade separated GO system. In other words, it's a mainly surface running suburban focused systems that runs in mainline railway corridors. Valencia is similar. Both are comparable to SF's BART (ie just a step above Sydney's Cityrail).

You'll find this is the case with most cities that have a very high ratio of subway trackage to population (ie more than 1km for every 45,000 people in the metro area). London also has significant stretches that runs on the surface on mainline tracks like high frequency railroad. The metropolitan Line for instance was actually an independent suburban railroad linking London to commuter towns before it was absorbed into the sprawling Underground. In terms of pure metro systems and not hybrids, Toronto isn't as far behind as it may seem. All it needs is one more line of about 30km (similar to YUS line) and it would have the same length per capita as NY, Montreal, Chicago, et al which is between 1km for every 50,000-60,000 people.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Ramako

How is Vancouver ahead of Toronto on that list? It doesn't even have a subway. Clearly they must be counting LRT as part of the "metro system", in which case Toronto will be adding about 70km over the next decade with the Spadina extension and the Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs. That would bring us to about 140km.

In order for a line to be considered rapid transit it has to be fully grade separated mean no at grade crossings. If all the extensions you mention have that characteristic, then they'd qualify. The Vancouver system is the same as the Scarborough RT which is included in Toronto's numbers, so if you don't accept its eligibility, then Toronto falls even further behind from 68.3km to 61.9.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by Ramako

How is Vancouver ahead of Toronto on that list? It doesn't even have a subway. Clearly they must be counting LRT as part of the "metro system", in which case Toronto will be adding about 70km over the next decade with the Spadina extension and the Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs. That would bring us to about 140km.

Totally agreed; Vancouver should not be on any list of "subway track". Also, I don't know how they split hairs for statistics, but according to the Wiki sites, TTC has slightly longer track and one more station than Montreal's Metro system (70 km vs 69.2 km). As we know, Toronto is the only Canadian city with its original streetcar system intact, so maybe we could include all of those miles of track too. Perhaps many of those cities on isaidso's list also include conventional city streetcar/tram systems. It just might perk up people who have convinced themselves that we have the worst system in Canada... or, the world.

Toronto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway_and_RT
Montreal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Metro

Originally Posted by isaidso

It was a nice photo. Btw, no city in Australia has a subway yet. They do beat us in intercity rail though. GO Train is puny compared to the equivalent in Sydney or Melbourne.

Again, the reason for this is that both Sydney and Melbourne are much more suburban cities than Toronto, with vast areas of single family dwellings. Toronto's subway system focused much development in clusters along its lines. If you have much more suburban development and no subway, then you develop more intercity rail. It would be very interesting to see an overlay map of TTC plus the Go rail system to compare to that of Montreal, or Vancouver. We never seem to compare intercity rail in Canadian cities... only subways.