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Old July 13th, 2008, 07:55 PM   #381
hkskyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
Beijing felt the recent big quake in China.
... and there was no damage. Feeling the quake is far different from being at the epi-centre.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 07:57 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
Based on this statement, I would like to ask you sir TRZ and Sarflonlad to explain this article to me.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0630130119.htm

Ye maybe you're right that New York is not a quake prone zone, but what if things happen unexpectedly ? oh shall we use the same arguement ?

ye we shall see.
Japan is one of the most quake-prone regions in the world. Japan and China are not that far apart.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
Beijing felt the recent big quake in China.
and .........?

Does that answer my question ?

And what happened after it feels the quake ? Elaborate it more please.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 07:59 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
... and there was no damage. Feeling the quake is far different from being at the epi-centre.
It wasn't the epicentre, but this pacific-rim area is known to have a high activity of tectonic forces.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 08:06 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Water damage from years of maintenance neglect can cause enough erosion to compromise the entire structure. After all, many of New York's stations are fairly aged. I don't see why neglect can take place in light of the extraordinary circumstance when water damage can actually cause structural failure, just as my curiosity as to why people are overly concerned the Beijing subway will suddenly collapse from one freak storm's flooding.
Because there have been articles about poor construction practices in the construction of Chinese subways; I haven't heard much about such problems with NYC's new line except the astronomical (record-setting?) costs.

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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The key difference is this is a huge public infrastructure project, not the small construction works that built in homes, schools, and the like that rarely attract foreign attention anyway.

I doubt foreign companies working as a contractor for the Beijing subway would sign off complete on their contracts if they did not due the quality checks beforehand. Why would they expose themselves to such a huge legal risk? This is why foreign involvement in these major projects can counter some questionable business practices in the mainland.
Because the contractor is almost guaranteed to be Chinese, not foreign. The contractor is responsible for the manual labour, which has to be Chinese if this is going to be built cheap, and in order to organize all the Chinese tradesmen, the General Contractor on the project is going to have to be Chinese as well; especially with the regulations on foreign business operations in China. I said the Construction Manager may be foreign; not the General Contractor. Ultimately, it is the General Contractor that is calling the shots on the construction site, and it is within their power to try and trick the inspectors if they so choose in an effort to save a few xuan.

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After all, Sichuan's houses rarely get international tenders. Why are we comparing those collapses with a big international project such as the Beijing subway? Quite a stretch, isn't it?
Not when there's a large collapse during construction and an attempted coverup by the Chinese workers in charge of the site.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 08:07 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
and .........?

Does that answer my question ?
You asked a simple yes/no question. I gave you an answer that went beyond yes/no. Don't act like you've been cheated, I gave you more than you asked for.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
Read this about Tokyo from Bloomberg


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1o&refer=japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloomberg
Forty-one percent of Japan's more than 129,000 public elementary and middle school buildings either aren't built to improved 1981 seismic codes or haven't been inspected, according to the education ministry's Web site.

...

About 75 percent of Japanese buildings met the 1981 quake standards as of 2005, the most recent year statistics are available, according to the Cabinet's disaster prevention office.
What's your point?
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Old July 13th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
Japan is one of the most quake-prone regions in the world. Japan and China are not that far apart.
Well , is that it ?

ok then maybe the title of that science daily report is misleading ? and the study by those researchers is invalid ?

Last edited by snow is red; July 13th, 2008 at 09:21 PM.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 01:50 AM   #389
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Quote:
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China's mad rush to build metros has raised unease amongst Chinese politicians themselves. As all metros, they're expensive to maintain and will not necessarily meet the expectations of reducing overcrowding and ridership.
So are roads, but I don't see you bitching about them. Chinese subway systems will be enormously successful as the nation continues to urbanize. It is hard to avoid traffic congestion in cities with 10+ million people. That is a fact of life since most city, state, and national governments are not willing to spend what it takes to invest in top notch transportation infrastructure.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 03:50 AM   #390
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There's nothing specifically Chinese about corruption. It's just the same country going through the development curve, where everyone disregards safety to get an extra buck.

In the West 100 years ago miners and factory bosses hired young children to perform dangerous jobs for pennies a day. Hundreds of Chinese workers paid a Head Tax to enter Canada only to get killed on a railway construction site because the boss saw them as expendable. When the skyscrapers of NYC and Chicago were being built one person went in for every body that went out. More than 5,000 people were killed when the Panama Canal was being built. And so on.

Give another 20 or 30 years when the mad rush for money is over, and Chinese society will be mature.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 04:26 AM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
Because there have been articles about poor construction practices in the construction of Chinese subways; I haven't heard much about such problems with NYC's new line except the astronomical (record-setting?) costs.

Because the contractor is almost guaranteed to be Chinese, not foreign. The contractor is responsible for the manual labour, which has to be Chinese if this is going to be built cheap, and in order to organize all the Chinese tradesmen, the General Contractor on the project is going to have to be Chinese as well; especially with the regulations on foreign business operations in China. I said the Construction Manager may be foreign; not the General Contractor. Ultimately, it is the General Contractor that is calling the shots on the construction site, and it is within their power to try and trick the inspectors if they so choose in an effort to save a few xuan.



Not when there's a large collapse during construction and an attempted coverup by the Chinese workers in charge of the site.
I'm pretty sure you can find a lot of such on both sides of the issue, we have not yet seen any major structural failure event happening as a result of a major natural disaster. Yes, poor construction practices exist in China, but we haven't seen things fall apart at a spectacular scale on the subway networks throughout the country. In light of today's massive web culture in the mainland, a subway system collapse will make it to the news. They can cover-up a small mine cave-in somewhere in the wilderness, but if it happens in a big city, it will get known.

Although foreign firms that win major parts of the contract may sub-contract out to local companies (not a surprising practice at all), that does not relieve the main contractor of responsibility as they need to do their quality assurance checks on work done by the sub-contractors. If anything were to happen, the ultimate top contractor will be held liable under the law. This isn't anything different from what happens in a Western country. Also note that foreign ownership rules are not applied to these contractor situations, as a foreign firm can win an entire segment of a project. What will likely happen is the tender will include some portion of technology / knowledge transfer, such as setting up a production line in the mainland, with oversight by the foreign firm. In this case, the contract will work like a joint venture, but the foreign firm will still be primarily responsible with the quality assurance. Their name is attached to the contract. They have no reason to deny their fiduciary duty.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 04:42 AM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
There's nothing specifically Chinese about corruption. It's just the same country going through the development curve, where everyone disregards safety to get an extra buck.

In the West 100 years ago miners and factory bosses hired young children to perform dangerous jobs for pennies a day. Hundreds of Chinese workers paid a Head Tax to enter Canada only to get killed on a railway construction site because the boss saw them as expendable. When the skyscrapers of NYC and Chicago were being built one person went in for every body that went out. More than 5,000 people were killed when the Panama Canal was being built. And so on.

Give another 20 or 30 years when the mad rush for money is over, and Chinese society will be mature.

The only problem with what you said is that when America and Western Europe went through their great period of industrialization, they were the first. Standards of labor and environmental decency evolved and matured, yet China is going through its industrialization as if they did not exist. And with resource scarcity increasing, environmental calamity ever closer, and material possession much higher, the simple fact of the matter is that the world cannot afford to see China develop in its current form. The Earth simply cannot support Western consumption levels in China.

Instead of leapfrogging the bad and disastrous aspects of industrialization, China is going along the same deadly path, only the consequences are more severe. America had 78 million in 1900 when it was in the midst of its industrialization. China has 1.3 BILLION people at a similar stage in economic development.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 05:44 AM   #393
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The only problem with what you said is that when America and Western Europe went through their great period of industrialization, they were the first. Standards of labor and environmental decency evolved and matured, yet China is going through its industrialization as if they did not exist. And with resource scarcity increasing, environmental calamity ever closer, and material possession much higher, the simple fact of the matter is that the world cannot afford to see China develop in its current form. The Earth simply cannot support Western consumption levels in China.

Instead of leapfrogging the bad and disastrous aspects of industrialization, China is going along the same deadly path, only the consequences are more severe. America had 78 million in 1900 when it was in the midst of its industrialization. China has 1.3 BILLION people at a similar stage in economic development.
Precisely. Couldn't have been said better.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 06:57 AM   #394
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these 'lax' labor, construction, environmental standards aren't emblematic of some pathological cultural or political flaw. you can convince yourself of this, and feel smug, but you'd still be deluding yourself.

if you were willing to dig deeper through historical texts, you'd see that progressive sentiments existed in north america and europe during its bad old days of development. more stringent labor and environmental standards could have been implemented much earlier than they were, yet were delayed because the capitalists wielded immense power, and the governments were weak and/or unresponsive and/or were willing to sacrifice the dignity of their labor force and the environment in the pursuit of economic growth.

fast forward another generation, and these same things were occurring in japan (hello minamata disease). then the ugliness of developing capitalism reared its head in the east asian tigers. what's going on in china now often isn't pretty. but it's not unprecedented. it's also supremely hypocritical of us to single them out, yet choose to ignore our own similar history.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 07:56 AM   #395
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what's going on in china now often isn't pretty. but it's not unprecedented. it's also supremely hypocritical of us to single them out, yet choose to ignore our own similar history.
The knowledge we have now and the globalized environment in which we live today, complete with infrastructure connecting everything to everywhere, is what removes all justification for any kind of excuse for allowing this to repeat itself yet again. It is not unprecedented, you are correct, and it is exactly because it is not unprecedented that it should not be allowed to happen again. It is not hypocritical for us to say "we were wrong when we did this, don't repeat our mistakes." It is nothing but the epitome of immaturity for China or any nation in a similar position (India?) to say "you did it this way 50+ years ago, we have a right to do it the same way." That's just absurd and should not be tolerated, it is not a valid argument in the least.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:01 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
The only problem with what you said is that when America and Western Europe went through their great period of industrialization, they were the first. Standards of labor and environmental decency evolved and matured, yet China is going through its industrialization as if they did not exist. And with resource scarcity increasing, environmental calamity ever closer, and material possession much higher, the simple fact of the matter is that the world cannot afford to see China develop in its current form. The Earth simply cannot support Western consumption levels in China.

Instead of leapfrogging the bad and disastrous aspects of industrialization, China is going along the same deadly path, only the consequences are more severe. America had 78 million in 1900 when it was in the midst of its industrialization. China has 1.3 BILLION people at a similar stage in economic development.
What are you talking about? You want to deny China's 1.3 Billion people the right to enjoy the life that all the people in the industrialized west current takes for granted because the spot has already been taken? The North American and European continent together consumers more of the planet's resources than the rest of the world combined and it is continueing to consume more even as the global supply of basic raw materials decline. Now the United States and Canada have by far the lowest cost of fuel and other basic resources and they both are on top of the list with per capita consumption. The United States uses more resources every year than China's enitre 1.3 billion people, with only 1/5 the population. TRZ clapped to your post, because he lives in Canada. What do you think the rest of the developing world is going to think when they read this? The democratic world preaches the equal rights to economical freedom and matrial wealth, yet people like you who resides in those very same countires talks about denying other's the right that your father or grand father had enjoyed. Maybe before asking people in other countires to reduce their levels of consumption, people like you should fist ask your own governments to reduce your own levels of waste. What right do you have to say that the Chinese cannot take America's route of industralization when your consumption is of a multiple of theirs.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:13 AM   #397
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So we're here feeling smug about how the Chinese don't care about their infrastructure, because they're by nature corrupt.

Okay. How does that explain the recent spate of falling cranes in NYC, or the Louisiana dykes breaking during a mild hurricane?

Because this thread is about subways and show projects, I'd like to point out that some of Toronto's subway stations have crumbling yellow lines, escalators that take months to repair and are still late, dripping ceilings (this is especially dangerous during winter), and a moving walkway that is torn up because of a lack of $.

All this when all the stations built since 1996 can be mistaken as art museums.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #398
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TRZ clapped to your post, because he lives in Canada.
You live in Canada. TRZ lives in Japan - but will be living in Canada again at the end of this month. In anycase, what's your point? (wouldn't be the first time you haven't had one)
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Old July 14th, 2008, 09:32 AM   #399
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It is not hypocritical for us to say "we were wrong when we did this, don't repeat our mistakes." It is nothing but the epitome of immaturity for China or any nation in a similar position (India?) to say "you did it this way 50+ years ago, we have a right to do it the same way." That's just absurd and should not be tolerated, it is not a valid argument in the least.
so, just how many capitalist societies can go from dirt poor to developed without all the messy labor and environmental issues? if you can name one, i'll concede the argument to you.

labor and environmental regulation IS a legitimate goal, yet they are expensive and have never been achieved overnight.

what's worse, present-day globalization allows for easy capital flight. if developing country governments try to impose more strict labor or environmental laws, the various corporations can just choose to move to a lower overhead, less restrictive place. if you're wal-mart or home depot or nike or basically ANY other corporation sourcing from a developing country, and that country has the gall to ask for higher wages or more strict environmental regulations, what's stopping you from heading elsewhere?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 09:52 AM   #400
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labor and environmental regulation IS a legitimate goal, yet they are expensive and have never been achieved overnight.

what's worse, present-day globalization allows for easy capital flight. if developing country governments try to impose more strict labor or environmental laws, the various corporations can just choose to move to a lower overhead, less restrictive place. if you're wal-mart or home depot or nike or basically ANY other corporation sourcing from a developing country, and that country has the gall to ask for higher wages or more strict environmental regulations, what's stopping you from heading elsewhere?
Maybe the better question is why doesn't the country where these businesses are based, the U.S. in some of the examples you've mentioned's cases, regulate what countries they can outsource to if they want to sell their product to the domestic market?
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