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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:02 AM   #401
particlez
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people are selfish. they look out for themselves. it was easier for various companies to outsource their most labor intensive, environmentally degradating work to the desperate nations with a surfeit of labor. the companies reap higher profits by circumventing our expensive labor and environmental regulations, and most people just place the blame on some supposedly nefarious foreign society.

IF there were one competent, objective governing body in the world, we might be able to enact and enforce minimum standards of conduct. as of now, it's often a race to the bottom.

conversely, if we canadians, americans, europeans etc. were wealthier, we could easily switch to solar on every roof, wind in all the windswept locations, wave in the oceans, geothermal power, and do away with all our fossil fuels. yet we can't. not because the technology does not exist, but because we cannot afford these 'luxuries'. do you see a parallel between this situation and the developing countries with their relatively lax standards?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #402
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The knowledge we have now and the globalized environment in which we live today, complete with infrastructure connecting everything to everywhere, is what removes all justification for any kind of excuse for allowing this to repeat itself yet again. It is not unprecedented, you are correct, and it is exactly because it is not unprecedented that it should not be allowed to happen again. It is not hypocritical for us to say "we were wrong when we did this, don't repeat our mistakes." It is nothing but the epitome of immaturity for China or any nation in a similar position (India?) to say "you did it this way 50+ years ago, we have a right to do it the same way." That's just absurd and should not be tolerated, it is not a valid argument in the least.
The industrialization process is dirty. It's an inherent reality. Technology has made the dirty phase shorter and less poisonous, but it is still dirty. China's industrialization is actually not as bad as what the West went through. Beijing and Shanghai haven't gone through the poison smog that London went through in the 19th century. Yes, the environment is at peril, but considering China is lifting 1.3 billion out of poverty, the effects are relatively less than when a much smaller European and American population did the same. We have not yet progressed technologically to completely remove the bad outflows from combustion. Yes, the mistakes of the past are being repeated, but at least now there is a marked reduction in the severity of the problem. As wealth builds and people have enough to eat and get a roof over their heads, this problem will decrease, as what the West has achieved.

I think the West has farmed out the dirty industries long enough to forget how dirty their past was to build up to the present. The dirty work is now done offshore, and if the world needs to be a cleaner place, someone will have to pay the price in the end, and that will ultimately be the consumer.

This isn't an issue of what can be tolerated. I think people's lack of tolerance for the negative effects of rapid growth exist, but I don't think a flood from a freak storm is reasonable enough to ignite the question of whether Beijing subway construction methods are questionable. There isn't enough info out there to make such a conclusion.

Industrialization is a dirty process. It can't be skipped. History will repeat itself. The hope is it can happen as fast as possible. At least now environmentalism is on the back of people's minds. It wasn't the case a hundred years ago. I think that in itself is a major improvement.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:12 AM   #403
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conversely, if we canadians, americans, europeans etc. were wealthier, we could easily switch to solar on every roof, wind in all the windswept locations, wave in the oceans, geothermal power, and do away with all our fossil fuels. yet we can't. not because the technology does not exist, but because we cannot afford these 'luxuries'. do you see a parallel between this situation and the developing countries with their relatively lax standards?
The money actually does exist, it is more a lack of political will (and political favours, blackmail, kickbacks, etc.) that is really at fault for this.

That said, I agree that a global governing body would simplify things a lot, but the very concept has a lot of complex problem in its own right - and that's putting it lightly.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:17 AM   #404
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The money actually does exist, it is more a lack of political will (and political favours, blackmail, kickbacks, etc.) that is really at fault for this
no one said developing countries were lily white. yet even establishing an efficient, non-corrupted governing body takes a while. why else was supposedly clean hong kong (or any other place in history if you go back far enough) basically a corrupt cesspool with choking pollution and labor exploitation until very recent times? it was even governed by an esteemed (at least in western media circles) colonial government.

and you haven't answered the question. based on your previous messages, you had stated that previous development patterns were a mistake which for the most part, can be avoided now. please give ONE example of a place which developed without labor and/or environmental issues?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #405
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I wouldn't be as concerned about the pace as I would the business ethic in China, which is discomforting, except for Hong Kong thanks to its days as a British colony (which has a significant impact on their business practices).
Yeah, like forcing a nation to buy drugs, right? ******* selfrighteous *******!
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:21 AM   #406
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I think we are seriously going off-topic, this is senseless.

TRZ, I hope you and other folks here think about Urbanfan89's post No.48.

TRZ, should I remind you that your Japan was not always like this throughout its development, please don't tell me Japan was always corruption free, especially during its industrialization stage.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #407
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really TRZ, go read up on historical development. it's both hypocritical and implausible to expect poorer nations to easily conform to our arbitrary standards of labor and environment. why don't you get your undies in a bunch because we're still burning coal and oil when it's technologically (but not yet financially) feasible to power everything with non polluting energy sources?

you're sounding like the 19th century eurosnobs who viewed then developing north america as a bunch of atavistic upstarts. how do you come up with crap like a culture of corruption or shady business practices? it's easy for you to cast aspersions onto others, yet you don't acknowledge very similar mindsets here?

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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:34 AM   #408
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Yeah, like forcing a nation to buy drugs, right? ******* selfrighteous *******!
Wow, you're very refined and articulate I see. What nation and what drugs, and how am I directly connected to any of it?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #409
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no one said developing countries were lily white. yet even establishing an efficient, non-corrupted governing body takes a while. why else was supposedly clean hong kong (or any other place in history if you go back far enough) basically a corrupt cesspool with choking pollution and labor exploitation until very recent times? it was even governed by an esteemed (at least in western media circles) colonial government.
Yeah, times change... one would hope they change for the better, but that isn't always the case, now, is it? That's why debates like these crop up. Just look at the U.S. and its dramatic decline for a great example of how it can go either way for any country, including the supposedly self-proclaimed invincible ones.

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and you haven't answered the question. based on your previous messages, you had stated that previous development patterns were a mistake which for the most part, can be avoided now. please give ONE example of a place which developed without labor and/or environmental issues?
Because the technologies are too recent for there to be an example yet; you siad it yourself, it takes a while. Your question is absurd in the first place, and you should know, that's why I ignored it, because of the timeline of technological advancement and the time it takes for a nation to develop, it is completely unrealistic to expect there to already be an example.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:46 AM   #410
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TRZ, I hope you and other folks here think about Urbanfan89's post No.48.
??? Which point? About Toronto's subways?

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TRZ, should I remind you that your Japan was not always like this throughout its development, please don't tell me Japan was always corruption free, especially during its industrialization stage.
Well, I never brought Japan into it apart from tectonic forces in the region; which includes Russia and the Koreas as well, am I supposed to address them, too?!

Japan's got big problems itself now; it's work ethic is deteriating quite badly because of left-over side-effects and by-products of the bubble collapse; not many people get properly trained here, and in about 20-30 years, this country is really going to be up the creek economically.

As for Japan's development, that was going on in the 50s through 70s at the same time as the west was making similar mistakes. Again, what is your point? It is about not repeating the same mistakes, you are missing the point.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:48 AM   #411
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Wow, you're very refined and articulate I see. What nation and what drugs, and how am I directly connected to any of it?
Who the **** cares what a history ignorant thinks of me?!
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:58 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by particlez View Post
really TRZ, go read up on historical development. it's both hypocritical and implausible to expect poorer nations to easily conform to our arbitrary standards of labor and environment. why don't you get your undies in a bunch because we're still burning coal and oil when it's technologically (but not yet financially) feasible to power everything with non polluting energy sources?
Well, this isn't really arbitrary since there are enough studies out there that can illustrate why one should what how in the departments of labour and environment; we didn't have that a few decades ago, much of it was produced within the last 20 years. This is why there are no examples yet of poorer nations developing in clean fashions or with good (strict) business practices/standards.
It is financially feasable to power everything with renewable energy; the big problem is political forces, not financial. And yeah, it is a big problem, I never suggested otherwise, so you are out of line to suggest I am singling anybody out.

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you're sounding like the 19th century eurosnobs who viewed then developing north america as a bunch of atavistic upstarts. how do you come up with crap like a culture of corruption or shady business practices? it's easy for you to cast aspersions onto others, yet you don't acknowledge very similar mindsets here?
Because I've dealt with the Chinese in the course of business here and know many others here that have dealt with them more? I have both first hand experience dealing with them myself and am in close contact with people that have other first hand experience with them, and also I hear the same thing from the Chinese people I've met here in Japan. When even the Chinese themselves tell me that there are big problems with China these days, why should I believe you over them?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 12:00 PM   #413
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Who the **** cares what a history ignorant thinks of me?!
Who cares about anything a mindless cussing ego-maniac posts?!
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Old July 14th, 2008, 12:06 PM   #414
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Who cares about anything a mindless cussing ego-maniac posts?!
As if you know what ego-maniac means ... oh right, just go and look at the mirror.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #415
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As if you know what ego-maniac means ... oh right, just go and look at the mirror.
OK, so the definition of ego-maniac, according to you, is written on a mirror, rather than in a dictionary You're silly.

Know what a troll looks like? Look in the mirror. (this is the kind of thing you wanted to say, but you are obviously incapable of insulting somebody properly, one might have guessed by your dependency on swear words )

Hey, I can claim to know astro-physics as long as I don't have to explain anything about it, just like you can claim to know history as long as you don't have to explain anything about it. Obviously you're a waste of time, say hi to the ignore box as it eats you, MUAHAHAHA
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Old July 14th, 2008, 01:35 PM   #416
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OK, so the definition of ego-maniac, according to you, is written on a mirror, rather than in a dictionary You're silly.

Know what a troll looks like? Look in the mirror. (this is the kind of thing you wanted to say, but you are obviously incapable of insulting somebody properly, one might have guessed by your dependency on swear words )

Hey, I can claim to know astro-physics as long as I don't have to explain anything about it, just like you can claim to know history as long as you don't have to explain anything about it. Obviously you're a waste of time, say hi to the ignore box as it eats you, MUAHAHAHA
So many words and still saying nothing ...
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:02 PM   #417
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It is financially feasable to power everything with renewable energy; the big problem is political forces, not financial
dude, it's also financial. i calculate finances for an architecture firm. there's no way in hell your average tract house (which is itself a damned waste of resources) in a wealthy city like vancouver or toronto can be economically feasible and saleable if it were built to LEED platinum standards. the very wealthy, who CAN afford all this, could thus look down on all the plebeians and see them as backward. with your logic, that would be ok.

hell, i'm canadian too. and just like you, i've worked in other places, some of which are considered developing nations. i'm saying that the professionals i've dealt with are just as qualified, but the twits who handle money will try to get away with as much as possible. the expat turds who believe in all this stuff about others being backward and prone to corruption are... well, they're a bunch of twits.

TRZ, the fact that you've dealt with self-hating people from developing nations is not surprising. too bad you're both too prejudiced and lacking in both knowledge and critical thinking to see past it. that's why you had to make a point about a flooded subway tunnel as emblematic of lower developing world construction standards, a cultural predilection for corruption, and every other dismissive attitude of some assholish national post editorial. you can't even make one consistent assertion except for a condescending attitude towards another culture. a flooded subway tunnel became a pulpit for you to argue against their pathological cultural flaws. if you think of it, you've been racist and irrational. yet because you do not actually have knowledge of the construction process, nor have you actually dealt with financial and oversight issues in developing nations, you can easily justify that, and write out a bunch of blithering messages.

getting back to my point: name ONE developing place which has successfully avoided corruption, labor exploitation, environmental exploitation. you can't, because these issues have pervaded every industry and every developing place. there goes the cultural basis for your assertions.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:55 PM   #418
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Maybe the better question is why doesn't the country where these businesses are based, the U.S. in some of the examples you've mentioned's cases, regulate what countries they can outsource to if they want to sell their product to the domestic market?
My point was very clear in my post, as with any other pervious posts. Maybe you should reread what I've posted.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #419
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Because I've dealt with the Chinese in the course of business here and know many others here that have dealt with them more?
Therefore I have the right to say whatever BS about how the Chinese are inherently corrupt and sleazy.

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When even the Chinese themselves tell me that there are big problems with China these days, why should I believe you over them?
So what country with industrialization in full swing does *not* have big problems? Do you prefer if China continued to be ruled by Maoists instead of reformers?

Still haven't addressed my point on how the organization represented in your avatar doesn't give a damn about maintenance, either.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #420
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Too much greed and too little professionalism.
I'm reminded of a friend who works for a major producer of engines and their experience with Chinese lack of professionalism.

The company in question tendered the design of a new engine part. Basically the Europeans, the Japanese and the Americans all said 'this is impossible. it can't be done... however if you change X part we could do it'. Come along the Chinese engineering company and they say 'We can do this'.

The bit about 'changing X part' was a fault in the tender process. An error went out in the tender of design. So the Europeans. Americans and Japanese all spotted a mistake in the design. The Chinese company however were happy to take money to do something they couldn't even be bothered to check was possible.
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