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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:00 PM   #421
particlez
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oh yeah, keep reminding yourselves that the 'developing' place is inherently unprofessional. you said it about the americans a hundred years ago, the japanese 50 years ago, and now there's a new group of upstart hicks to disparage.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:49 AM   #422
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oh yeah, keep reminding yourselves that the 'developing' place is inherently unprofessional. you said it about the americans a hundred years ago, the japanese 50 years ago, and now there's a new group of upstart hicks to disparage.
You can add the Korean, the Taiwanese and many other upstart who has a humble start but through effort and planning manage to proves their critic wrong!
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Old July 15th, 2008, 09:50 PM   #423
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oh yeah, keep reminding yourselves that the 'developing' place is inherently unprofessional. you said it about the americans a hundred years ago, the japanese 50 years ago, and now there's a new group of upstart hicks to disparage.
Well all my dealings with Eastern European and Indian clients are of the upmost professional standards.

China and the Chinese better get used to more scrutiny as it becomes wealthier and more powerful - particularly as most people have reservations about its government.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:09 PM   #424
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oh yeah, you're sounding like a genius.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:17 PM   #425
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what's really ironic is that you and the other critic TRZ latch onto any and all bad news (a la fox news) about a supposed enemy, while overlooking very similar flaws in ourselves, and allied regimes.

have you even been to eastern europe or india? developing nations ALL possess overwhelmingly similar issues regarding corruption and governance. of course, i don't expect you to come up with a cogent argument.

Last edited by particlez; July 15th, 2008 at 11:53 PM.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 12:43 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Well all my dealings with Eastern European and Indian clients are of the upmost professional standards.

China and the Chinese better get used to more scrutiny as it becomes wealthier and more powerful - particularly as most people have reservations about its government.
And your friend's experience with them ?

Do you deal with Chinese clients ?

What sector are you working in ?

Last edited by snow is red; July 16th, 2008 at 02:58 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 06:54 PM   #427
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dude, it's also financial. i calculate finances for an architecture firm. there's no way in hell your average tract house (which is itself a damned waste of resources) in a wealthy city like vancouver or toronto can be economically feasible and saleable if it were built to LEED platinum standards. the very wealthy, who CAN afford all this, could thus look down on all the plebeians and see them as backward. with your logic, that would be ok.
I'm saying that it is political because the political forces could set into place mechanics to remove the financial barriers; there is enough to go around, especially considering the massive surpluses that governments both provincial and federal are generating these days while some are simultaneously lowering taxes across the board. Despite the slowdown in States, Canada's economy is fairing remarkably well. A system of wealth redistribution, likely through some environmental taxation scheme as well as support from general revenue, could fund a large-scale program that makes it affordable and event profitable for people to convert their homes. Dense urban centres would be more complicated (to renovate anyway), but they're already less offensive than the abyss of the subdivision.

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hell, i'm canadian too. and just like you, i've worked in other places, some of which are considered developing nations. i'm saying that the professionals i've dealt with are just as qualified, but the twits who handle money will try to get away with as much as possible. the expat turds who believe in all this stuff about others being backward and prone to corruption are... well, they're a bunch of twits.
If your point is anyone can be corrupt, I agree. There's enough stories in the news about such from Canada, U.S., Japan, U.K., and pretty much any developed nation, but these cases stand out because it isn't widespread. However in some countries, like China or Russia, they're notorized for widespread corruption.

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TRZ, the fact that you've dealt with self-hating people from developing nations is not surprising. too bad you're both too prejudiced and lacking in both knowledge and critical thinking to see past it. that's why you had to make a point about a flooded subway tunnel as emblematic of lower developing world construction standards, a cultural predilection for corruption, and every other dismissive attitude of some assholish national post editorial. you can't even make one consistent assertion except for a condescending attitude towards another culture. a flooded subway tunnel became a pulpit for you to argue against their pathological cultural flaws. if you think of it, you've been racist and irrational. yet because you do not actually have knowledge of the construction process, nor have you actually dealt with financial and oversight issues in developing nations, you can easily justify that, and write out a bunch of blithering messages.
Talk about running off on a senseless rant, you should not be lecturing others.
First off, I don't read the national post, nor do I expect to in future. Second, the flooded subway is not the only thing I am basing this on, I've mentioned several other references already both in the news and in my own business dealings as well as social contacts from China. The views and experiences are consistent, and thus by extension, so is my argument. Third, I do have knowledge about the construction process; I work in the industry, similar to you (I'm not an estimator though). Fourth, this is not racism because this has nothing to do with stereotyping; lots of sources of info and lots of people's experience all point to the same thing. Fifth, check out how worked up you are about nothing and you tell me who's irrational.

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getting back to my point: name ONE developing place which has successfully avoided corruption, labor exploitation, environmental exploitation. you can't, because these issues have pervaded every industry and every developing place. there goes the cultural basis for your assertions.
As I already stated previously, the technology is too recent to have generated an example since development takes several years.

However, part of it in this is political, but not only the politics of the developing nation, part of it is the politics of the already developed nations, too.

The technology and know-how exists, and the kinds of international training for such to become real has been around for a long time; the Brits did it with the Japanese in the late 1800s when they taught them the technology of railways (and in the end the student surpasses the master).

It is possible, but as usual, politics gums up the works on both sides(developed and developing).
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Old July 16th, 2008, 07:02 PM   #428
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My point was very clear in my post, as with any other pervious posts. Maybe you should reread what I've posted.
You're quoting my response to a post that wasn't yours, nor have you replied yet to my last post where I replied to you. Oh well, knowing your posting history, not suprised you'd be so non-sensical.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 07:07 PM   #429
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Therefore I have the right to say whatever BS about how the Chinese are inherently corrupt and sleazy.
How is it BS when it is first hand from the mouth of the Chinese and from my own first-hand experience with the Chinese? I didn't make my experience up. The quality of work and the level of professionalism from the Chinese in my business dealings is not very flattering. It isn't all from one source either.


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So what country with industrialization in full swing does *not* have big problems? Do you prefer if China continued to be ruled by Maoists instead of reformers?
China isn't ruled by reformers today, sorry, try again.

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Still haven't addressed my point on how the organization represented in your avatar doesn't give a damn about maintenance, either.
Actually, I did address it earlier before you even posted your question;

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Well, my hometown's subway network has dealt with massive blizzards, tornado-brewing winds, heavy rain, extreme heat, extreme cold, and a massive fire in the system. That system is quite the trooper, and I hold it as a standard as do others in the industry. It isn't the most aesthetic, but it's sound.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 07:13 PM   #430
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what's really ironic is that you and the other critic TRZ latch onto any and all bad news (a la fox news) about a supposed enemy, while overlooking very similar flaws in ourselves, and allied regimes.
TRZ doesn't watch FOX. The same bad news is in all news media whether left-wing or right-wing. Lead painted toys... poisonous hotel toothpaste... subway construction cave-ins... knock-off fly-ash in concrete for high-speed rail track-bed... yeah, this flooded subway is really the only thing that has ever gone wrong in China Give me a break.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 07:23 PM   #431
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right TRZ, you're a professional, and you're unbiased enough to see one flooded tunnel as a symbol of one nation and its pathological flaws with political and personal corruption and incompetence.

of course, you're also the histrionic cheerleader for every damned transit development in toronto. strange that you've never cited corruption and incompetence as a factor in that city's messed up infrastructure.

just how do you get the time to log online 24/7 and argue? especially when you can't even make a point?
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Old July 16th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by particlez View Post
what's really ironic is that you and the other critic TRZ latch onto any and all bad news (a la fox news) about a supposed enemy, while overlooking very similar flaws in ourselves, and allied regimes.

have you even been to eastern europe or india? developing nations ALL possess overwhelmingly similar issues regarding corruption and governance. of course, i don't expect you to come up with a cogent argument.
Never watch Fox news, never have done.

I see flaws in my own country and dealings with other countries... but when it comes to China the flaws are generally magnified. Primarily because of it's size. Unavoidable. The Chinese also have outdated views on the West and like to get all uppity about Western criticism, labelling it "arrogant" and "biased". Believe me, I lived there, I know.

All of concern that was presented by me here was: The pace at which China is building infrastructure but with little regard for quality. ie. Tunnels flooding in a newly built subway. This concern is reflected too by Chinese politicians - so I'm not quite sure what's wrong with pointing out the failure in building and planning here.

Secondly I also presented anecdotal evidence of the pace of greed and lack of professionalism in China. Other people who work with the Chinese agree. Again, the Chinese market is larger than that of India or Eastern Europe - so the frequency of bad experiences will be greater.

not quite so sure why you're so enraged here!
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Old July 16th, 2008, 11:28 PM   #433
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How is it BS when it is first hand from the mouth of the Chinese and from my own first-hand experience with the Chinese? I didn't make my experience up. The quality of work and the level of professionalism from the Chinese in my business dealings is not very flattering. It isn't all from one source either.
I dunno...maybe because professional education is still not up to world-class levels there (judging from my parents' experience there)?

And how fast do you want a society to advance in just 20 years? Back then everything was still state-controlled.

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China isn't ruled by reformers today, sorry, try again.
Fine. Resuscitate Mao and find out his view about modern China.
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Old July 16th, 2008, 11:53 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Never watch Fox news, never have done.

I see flaws in my own country and dealings with other countries... but when it comes to China the flaws are generally magnified. Primarily because of it's size. Unavoidable. The Chinese also have outdated views on the West and like to get all uppity about Western criticism, labelling it "arrogant" and "biased". Believe me, I lived there, I know.

All of concern that was presented by me here was: The pace at which China is building infrastructure but with little regard for quality. ie. Tunnels flooding in a newly built subway. This concern is reflected too by Chinese politicians - so I'm not quite sure what's wrong with pointing out the failure in building and planning here.

Secondly I also presented anecdotal evidence of the pace of greed and lack of professionalism in China. Other people who work with the Chinese agree. Again, the Chinese market is larger than that of India or Eastern Europe - so the frequency of bad experiences will be greater.

not quite so sure why you're so enraged here!

I am not sure if water pouring in from the entrance due to torrential rain can be counted as a quality problem, and obviously it is not a leakage.

You're right, even Chinese officials themselves repeat that points many times that the quality issue cannot be overlooked and need to be considered together with the fast pace.

My intention is to keep this thread purely about China but since you brought in Eastern Europe and India, then I am wondering if the level of corruption is any better than China. You never know and you have to be there physically to feel it. And since your friend dealt with the Chinese , then maybe he has dealt with the Eastern European and Indian too ?


You lived in China before, right ? (Shanghai to be more specific), so did you deal with any Chinese clients ? What are your experiences with them ? (so far you only tell us one experience from your friend) What sector do you work in ?

Seriously I think sometimes the world media focuses on China too much and they tend to forget that there is still a developing world out there for them to explore.

Last edited by snow is red; July 17th, 2008 at 12:42 PM.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 12:30 AM   #435
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dude sarflonlad; i've had questionable experiences in china too. only i don't use these experiences to justify a blanket condemnation of everyone else in that out-group. i've also had to work with asses from developed nations. homeland security and the planning department of the city of los angeles immediately spring to mind when it comes to incompetence and corruption respectively. yet i'm not flying into LAX fearing the very worst from a supposedly nefarious place and culture. read through the thread. that's what TRZ's attitude in a nutshell.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 09:16 AM   #436
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right TRZ, you're a professional, and you're unbiased enough to see one flooded tunnel as a symbol of one nation and its pathological flaws with political and personal corruption and incompetence.
You go ahead and ignore the other slew of problems plus my own personal business interaction I listed last time I posted

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of course, you're also the histrionic cheerleader for every damned transit development in toronto. strange that you've never cited corruption and incompetence as a factor in that city's messed up infrastructure.
Well, you might not have noticed, but Toronto isn't what this thread is about; it's about Beijing's subway. I could go into tons of problems on Toronto's system past and present... but it is still sound with no cave-ins and floodings. So what's your point? Hey, you ignored the other posts so obviously you can't make a point.

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just how do you get the time to log online 24/7 and argue? especially when you can't even make a point?
You don't think I'm making a point because it is obvious you aren't reading my posts. As for 24/7... didn't I take DAYS to reply here?

Good point though; why should I spend any time arguing with you? You are obviously far too self-obsorbed trying to prop-up China's image in vain that you wouldn't be interested in a rational argument - you're just a troll. Have fun in ignore land.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 09:27 AM   #437
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I dunno...maybe because professional education is still not up to world-class levels there (judging from my parents' experience there)?
If they want to do business; they should be capable of doing business. My experience is they don't get it, yet. That is the gist of my argument.

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And how fast do you want a society to advance in just 20 years? Back then everything was still state-controlled.
The fact that 20 years is a relatively short time is exactly the point I was making to particlez; why don't you go shut down particlez's BS argument on other examples of developing nations when the time period is totally impossible? I never disagreed the 20 years argument you're making now.



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Fine. Resuscitate Mao and find out his view about modern China.
In the last so-called "elections" they decided that there were not going to be any changes in the system. That's not reform like you claim. Your blowing a fit complete with senseless rhetoric is proving nothing.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #438
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Up to now I still don't see how a flood during a freak storm can be extrapolated into a blanket perception on questionable construction practices. It'll take a much bigger propaganda machine to brainwash people into believing so!
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Old July 17th, 2008, 11:44 AM   #439
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Exactly hkskyline, I don't know how people can say that the flood from the entrance due to bad rain is quality issue.

But anyway beside that I do really think TRZ has good valid points, he was just pointing out his experiences. It's actually quite interesting that he shares his experience with us. At the moment, China does need people to help her point out the dark side of the society. I think years under communism and poverty make people more susceptible to greed when the open door policy was put in place. But I don't think this "gold rush" period will last forever.

Different people intepret things differently, some people may say it's good criticism, some say racist steretype, some say mindless bashing.

The only thing I don't agree here is the flood from the entrance is counted as a quality issue.

PS : Don't you think this thread is already too long and too out of topic ?
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Old July 17th, 2008, 01:00 PM   #440
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Excellent pics of the stations just what was expected from China.....All Europes stations looks like penuts in front of these stations....
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