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Old October 18th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #701
NCT
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Density is one thing, function is quite another. Functions are best concentrated according to their scope, global, national, regional and local, to optimise resourse-sharing and communication, so you inevitably end up with a set of centres with different and overlapping spheres of influence, which are best supported by nested radial networks of different sizes. And this is essentially what Ils-de-France and Greater Tokyo are.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Density is one thing, function is quite another. Functions are best concentrated according to their scope, global, national, regional and local, to optimise resourse-sharing and communication, so you inevitably end up with a set of centres with different and overlapping spheres of influence, which are best supported by nested radial networks of different sizes. And this is essentially what Ils-de-France and Greater Tokyo are.

you're just so full of it. do you have a random bullshit generator?

global, national, regional, and local. yeah, that means a lot when you're talking about subway routes.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 10:37 PM   #703
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incidentally, beijing is also building an S-bahn network and there will be at least 2 high-speed lines coming and going...
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Old October 18th, 2009, 11:11 PM   #704
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you're just so full of it. do you have a random bullshit generator?

global, national, regional, and local. yeah, that means a lot when you're talking about subway routes.
Once again, no attempts at understanding the issue, and a predictably desparado cheap attack.

Businesses draw customers and talents from different-sized spheres according to their function and scope. Your convenience store is likely to have customers from no more than a block away, yet your Wangfujing attracts customers from places as far as Miyun and Sanhe.

(Global and national) Company headquaters have much higher and more complex travel needs - higher commuting distances and visits to client companies etc. Your subway network needs to consider all sorts of things from maximising accessibility and connections to rail termini.

All these different needs have to be specifically catered for, and assuming there can be a simple one-size-fits-all model is plain naive.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #705
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^in case you haven't noticed, wangfujing IS served, and by a bunch of lines at that.

every station does have a minimum population within its catchment area.

the subway won't be the only PT option within beijing. even now, the rail from tianjin does serve as a de facto 'express' service for several areas in its path to central beijing.

would you IDEALLY want a 4-line system a la manhattan? sure, but there's also cost benefit to be considered.

and really now, is this system all that different from the subway in central paris or in the 23 special wards of tokyo? cause... they sure as hell have lines that criss cross.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 03:30 PM   #706
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^in case you haven't noticed, wangfujing IS served, and by a bunch of lines at that.

every station does have a minimum population within its catchment area.

the subway won't be the only PT option within beijing. even now, the rail from tianjin does serve as a de facto 'express' service for several areas in its path to central beijing.

would you IDEALLY want a 4-line system a la manhattan? sure, but there's also cost benefit to be considered.

and really now, is this system all that different from the subway in central paris or in the 23 special wards of tokyo? cause... they sure as hell have lines that criss cross.
You are comparing Greater Beijing with central Paris and Tokyo. You are labouring under the delusion that uniform density = uniform distribution of economic functions. Overcentralisation in traditional cities arguably does exist to some extent, but a completely uniform land-use model for a city is entirely unjustified.

Before I go on, might I just clarify, for the benefit of other forumers, that the diagram on a black background we've seen earlier is actually light-hearted fantasy on the part of an enthusiast (no discredit directed at this individual for he clearly stated the purpose for his exercise):

http://www.ditiezu.com/viewthread.php?tid=74083

For a more accurate 2015-plan, please see this thread (I shan't copy the picture directly without the owner's permission):

http://www.ditiezu.com/viewthread.php?tid=73550

Now, credit where credit is due - the basic structure of the masterplan is sound - you can just make out the (dominant) radial lines. Passenger convenience leaves a lot to be desired. The outer named lines tend to finish up in the middle of nowhere, and there's usually one choice for onward connection - this presents passengers with one entirely unecessary change. Your Batong/#1 and Yizhuang/#5 are your typical examples. Those relying on the Fangshan, Changping and Xijiao lines don't even have the luxuary of one direct change onto a radial line, meaning there's a high chance they'll have to change 3 times for a relatively simple journey.

Beijing has a relatively hollow Central Area (in terms of function not just built density), and it's core functions relatively spaced out across Greater Beijing. I'm not sure this is the best land-use concept for a capital city and a regional centre - there's not many economies of scale that can be exploited.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 04:29 PM   #707
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Quote:
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^in case you haven't noticed, wangfujing IS served, and by a bunch of lines at that.
Unless things have changed since February, Wangfujing is NOT well served by the Beijing Subway. I recall having to walk at least 20 minutes from the nearest subway station to get there. I have to say, central area coverage is not a strong suit of the Beijing Subway (one of several reasons I believe that it's inferior to the Shanghai Metro) and from the looks of that 2015 plan, it doesn't look to get much better in the years to come. Shanghai's city centre metro coverage is far better, and will only be improving in the coming years with at least 6 new lines (7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) serving the city centre area (the region within the Line 4 ring).
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Old October 19th, 2009, 08:31 PM   #708
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Unless things have changed since February, Wangfujing is NOT well served by the Beijing Subway. I recall having to walk at least 20 minutes from the nearest subway station to get there. I have to say, central area coverage is not a strong suit of the Beijing Subway (one of several reasons I believe that it's inferior to the Shanghai Metro) and from the looks of that 2015 plan, it doesn't look to get much better in the years to come. Shanghai's city centre metro coverage is far better, and will only be improving in the coming years with at least 6 new lines (7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) serving the city centre area (the region within the Line 4 ring).
Yeah Shanghai metro is easily the best subway system in mainland China and it will remain this way in the forseeable future
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Old October 19th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Unless things have changed since February, Wangfujing is NOT well served by the Beijing Subway. I recall having to walk at least 20 minutes from the nearest subway station to get there. I have to say, central area coverage is not a strong suit of the Beijing Subway (one of several reasons I believe that it's inferior to the Shanghai Metro) and from the looks of that 2015 plan, it doesn't look to get much better in the years to come. Shanghai's city centre metro coverage is far better, and will only be improving in the coming years with at least 6 new lines (7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) serving the city centre area (the region within the Line 4 ring).
the central area (in and around Tiananmen square to the Second Ring Road) is not and probably will never be well served by the subway system because the underground is occupied by subway networks that are reserved for offical government/military/emergency uses.

One of the main reasons why Beijing is able to build subways at the stunning speed that it does is because many of the tunnels that have recently been opened for public service had been in place for years, if not decades, being used by the government for many offical purposes.

again, not widely known information.
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Old October 20th, 2009, 03:24 AM   #710
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chemist- wangfujing is covered by the initial line and line 5. they're not THAT close, but line 8 (the current short olympic line) is being extended and will run to wangfujing in 2-4 years. it's supposedly going to be extended further south, but that hasn't yet been confirmed. line 6 is being built through wangfujing (on dongsi) in an east-west direction. despite what some detractors here think-- no reasonable planner would plan for high traffic areas to be underserviced. then there's the shanghai-beijing pissing contest, which is makes as much sense as the toronto-chicago pissing contests.

you have to remember that both shanghai and beijing still have developing transit systems. more lines and coverage are being added. coverage 'SHOULD' eventually be comprehensive (as with other east asian cities with similar built forms). but there are two possible scenarios in which the PT growth stops.

1. a financial collapse occurs, with all infrastructure projects affected negatively, which is a very scary proposition.
2. urban planning takes a 180 degree turn, and leads the various municipalities to wholly embrace car-centric suburban levittowns with their white picket fences, cute middle class utopian houses, and fat greenfield developer profits, which is only slightly less scary.

the supposed military no-go area through beijing a more of an urban legend than anything. the unused cold war underground city is planned to be remodeled along the lines of toronto's path and montreal's reso. some people hate the non street-level passages. but no one will complain when the weather turns frigid (one thing beijing has in common with toronto and montreal).

a reason for beijing's low (by chinese standards) population density is its need to preserve the forbidden city and other areas in its historical core, resulting in a strange donut-shaped pattern of development. many of its densest areas are between the second and fourth ring roads, which explains the circular subway lines in its plan. density is often overlooked when people critique PT efficiency. the difference in aggregate density between urban beijing and urban shanghai (28000/sq. km vs. 15000/sq. km) have an effect on their PT efficiency. with other factors being neutral, it's just a lot easier for shanghai than beijing (on an cost per capita basis) because its PT services a smaller footprint. on a related note, it's also a chief non-political reason why much of low density north america is not/cannot be efficiently served by PT.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 05:57 AM   #711
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Beijing's subway is the most used subway in China, way more than any other cities in China. It is also one of the most used subways in the world -ranking 8 in 2008. With its daily passengers now passing 5 million per day, it will pass HongKong and Paris very soon I think.

As to Beijing's subway length, it will be the largest in China at least. The long term plan is 1300km. The distant second will be Shanghai with over 800km in long term. Quite understandable though, Beijing is nearly 3 times as big as Shanghai after all.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #712
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I like the ultimate plan of Beijing subway with lot of radial and ring lines covering every part of the city. The stations are beautiful as well. Earlier I thought that Delhi metro would become largest subway by 2020 as it will be larger than London Underground but then I saw the plans of Beijing and Shanghai. Quite impressive
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Old December 11th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #713
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How long is Beijing Metro now?
280 km. or more?
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Old December 12th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post
It seems like a good vid, but it's taking forever to load (and my connection is not slow)...any reason for that? It seems like something to do with the site. Any other way of watching this?
Discovery Channel: Man-Made Marval- Beijing Metro System (YouTube)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogWgP...eature=related
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 01:52 PM   #715
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The large map is no doubt fantastic, but it is unreadable for Non-Chinese readers like me. So can anybody write the station names in English?

Another question – What does those means as M, L & S before line numbers? Any explanation?

Hi! I’m from India, living Kolkata, which has a subway line, which is India’s first, and my country’s capital Delhi is also not far away. According to master plan, Total length of Delhi’s metro would be 450 Km in 2020.
Best wishes for expanding metros of China more & more, be a proud of Asia by metro.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 07:05 PM   #716
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The Beijing Subway map?


Wikipedia's 2015 map is the most comprehensive map that has English




The long long long term plan is to have every part of Beijing covered by a subway line (Chinese only).

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Old January 3rd, 2010, 07:13 PM   #717
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It will take me days on end to ride to all the stations! That's still several years away though. Then I'll have to hit Guangzhou and Shanghai in the same trip.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 08:27 PM   #718
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That long term plan is ridiculous! How many kms of lines should that be?
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 08:47 PM   #719
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Old January 5th, 2010, 10:36 AM   #720
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What does those means as M, L & S before line numbers on the first Chinese map of this page? Any explanation?
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