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Old May 30th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by z0rg View Post
For some reason in China subway stations are very far away from each other. People living in a middle point between two of them will keep needing a car.
that's not really true, in a few cities that might be the case but in beijing and tianjin there's a subway station at least every 500m
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Old May 31st, 2010, 01:22 AM   #742
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For some reason in China subway stations are very far away from each other. People living in a middle point between two of them will keep needing a car.
In the suburbs, perhaps. But certainly not in the central city area. You have to remember that places like Shanghai and Beijing are pretty enormous, and that the outer edges of the subway network run through areas with much lower density than the central areas, hence more distance between stations.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 05:24 AM   #743
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Quote:
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For some reason in China subway stations are very far away from each other. People living in a middle point between two of them will keep needing a car.
People leaving midpoint between stations can use surface public transit like buses, trolley buses and trams. Or, if they do not mind walking for 15 min, they can just walk. Very healthy. Or possibly ride a bike. Nobody would use a car to drive about 1-1.5 km.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 08:59 AM   #744
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Oh, come on. For example in Shanghai it's just 5 stations from Nanjing Donglu to Zhongshan Gongyuan, that's less than 1 station per km on the average. Should be 10 stations at the very least.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 02:27 PM   #745
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Stations are not that far apart on Beijing subway - it's just that there aren't that many lines within the Line 2 ring at the moment. The central network will be densified in due course to be comparable to that of Shanghai's.

Beijing subway and Shanghai metro are more comparable to Paris RER than Paris Metro, so relatively long distances between stations are to be expected.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 03:05 PM   #746
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Hmmm... even if those people live in the midpoint of 1.5 miles, and let's say not directly above the metro-line will have to walk 1 mile (in the most extreme case). If we say that avg. human walking speed is 3-3.5 miles per hour, they will need 17-20 minutes to get to the metro-station. Those who can't walk for 17-20 minutes and wanna live in a city that big should just stay at home...
Also, alternative home-to-metro-station transport like small foldable city bike like Brompton or Dahon could be a solution for getting there faster.
Don't see a problem there.

Oh... just saw that anm had the same reasoning like me... I just agree.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 04:02 PM   #747
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1.5 miles is surely an exaggetaion. 1-1.5 km are the norm in Shanghai and Beijing, and London and Paris RER. The maximum distance you have to walk is about 800m or 10 minutes.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 05:11 PM   #748
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ofc it's an exaggeration. It's only hypothetical example (calculation), to show that stations on every 400-500m are unnecessary in a city of Beijing scale. Moreover, short distances between stations would make the system tardy and inefficient.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 07:12 PM   #749
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Shorter gap between stations also makes the system less capable of expanding further. Because of shorter gaps, the average speed of the train will be much less and it will not be viable to extend such lines to large distances. Paris metro is a relevant example in this case. Because of short gaps, they could not extend metro further into suburbs and had to build RER with longer gaps.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 07:47 PM   #750
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I thought the average spacing between stations should be 1.3 - 1.6 km in subway networks. This type of spacing can best allow for an average operating speed of around 35km/h and allows coordior access with at most an 800m walk.

500 is too short, and expansive to build.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 12:16 AM   #751
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As a general point however stations in the central area(s) should be closer together so no one single station is too overcrowded.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 01:01 PM   #752
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Logistics aside, I have to agree with Zorg. I usually find when wandering around parts of central shanghai the closest stop is usually the one I got off of. This usually isn't the case in Manhattan, where I am usually. Maybe this has something to do with overall city design and people flows rather than distance between stations? Or maybe because Manhattan has the luxury of quadruple tracked lines?
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Old June 1st, 2010, 03:19 PM   #753
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It depends really, on area and line. The very heart of Shanghai (Huangpu District) have stations rather close together, and likewise recently opened lines 6, 8 and 10. Just a few years ago where there weren't tha many lines or stations so it would certainly feel as though there's only this single station in the vicinity.

It's only line 2 with some insufferable long gaps, between Jing'an Temple, Manjing Xilu and People's Square, where there ought to have been Shangxi Beilu and Chengdu Beilu.

Anyway, back to Beijing
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:12 PM   #754
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People in Manhattan who travel any more than a few stops will take the express. Distances between those stops are ~2km I'd imagine.

Subways used to compete with slower vehicles and road systems. Many subways these days are competing with motorways ( freeways ) and more efficient ( for cars ) grid systems.

As such, they're competing with faster average speeds, even when you account for congestion.

By the way, 1.5km is 0.9mi.

It can really affect travel times when you go under 1500m. Vancouver has a few lines:

E-Line: 44.5km/h avg ( ~1445m between stops )
M-Line: 43.5km/h avg ( ~1500m between stops )
C-Line: 36km/h avg ( ~1100m between stops )

Toronto's subway is about 800m - 1200m between stops and it averages only 33km/h. Sure, it's an older subway, but most of the reason for the speed difference is station spacing.

To further break it down, the first half ( 9.8km ) of the E-Line travels at 39.2km/h ( 1225m spacing ) and so the second half at ~50km/h ( ~1700m spacing ).

That's a significant 25% increase in avg. speed on the same line, just because of a few hundred metres of spacing.

I wouldn't be surprised if a car travels an average speed of between 30km/h and 40km/h in urban areas. To compete, you have to be significantly faster. You have to weigh the inconvenience of needing to travel further to a station with the convenience of faster travel times.

Walking times to stations can be fixed by building high density housing and employment around stations. Japan has done this really well and I'm sure China will too. It mitigates the need to have lots of stations and increases speeds. It also reduces costs.

Note: Vancouver uses the same Canadian LIM technology as the Beijing Airport Express train.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; June 1st, 2010 at 08:17 PM.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:57 PM   #755
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Or have a look at Munich S-bahn.

Average station distance 2700 m. Average speed 65 km/h, so a time per station 2 min 30 s. 30 s in a station, doors open to doors closed. Accelerating at 1 m/s^2 (limited by passenger comfort) means it takes 30 s to reach 108 km/h, then 60 s cruise, then 30 s deceleration - covering the 2700 m. Maximum speed 120 km/h.

Munich S-bahn is and has been wildly popular and big suburbs have been built around the stations.

Now, in Chengdu, Dujiangyan line has been opened. 65 km long, maximum speed 220 km/h, 15 stations.

The railway between Beijing and Tianjin is 117 km long, with 3 stations. Maximum speed 350 km/h, station intervals 20...30 km. A bit inconveniently far for serious commuter services. How long does the train trip take between Beijing and Yizhuang station?

The major cities of China would each need a bunch of 50...100 km long (from centre) suburban railways, with 200...300 km/h maximum speed and 5...10 km station distance. And surface trolley and streetcar interchange at each railway station.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 09:39 PM   #756
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Chorned... but that's a little different. Those are truly regional rail systems.

I don't know Munich's system, but if it's like Berlin, the S-Bahn is definitely more for long distance commuters. It's more of an intra-regional system like RER, Toronto Go Train, West Coast Express, LIRR ( NYC ).

This is talking about actual Subway systems which

A better comparison would be the U-Bahn.

Can anyone calculate Beijing's average speed, number of stations, total line length and travel time on its lines. I'd be curious to know.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 03:02 AM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Shorter gap between stations also makes the system less capable of expanding further. Because of shorter gaps, the average speed of the train will be much less and it will not be viable to extend such lines to large distances. Paris metro is a relevant example in this case. Because of short gaps, they could not extend metro further into suburbs and had to build RER with longer gaps.
Good point, agree, a large, sprawling city like Beijing would be best served by having longer subway station spacing.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 04:49 AM   #758
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Logistics aside, I have to agree with Zorg. I usually find when wandering around parts of central shanghai the closest stop is usually the one I got off of. This usually isn't the case in Manhattan, where I am usually. Maybe this has something to do with overall city design and people flows rather than distance between stations? Or maybe because Manhattan has the luxury of quadruple tracked lines?
Subway in Manhatten was not planned by a single entity - there were originally two competing companies. As a result it is redundant in many places. With better planning it could have been simpler/ easier to use and more efficient, but it is historically what it is.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 04:59 AM   #759
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What rolling stock does the system use? I mean, what companies build their trains.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 05:26 AM   #760
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What rolling stock does the system use? I mean, what companies build their trains.
The trains of the Beijing subway are manufactured in whole or in large part by the Sifang Locomotive and Rolling Stock Company.

I think the line 5 trains were manufactured in cooperation with Hitachi.

The airport train is a version of the Bombardier Advanced Rapid Transit.
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