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Old April 11th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #941
Silly_Walks
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That thing is an abomination.

I don't know if the original street cars were so ridiculously big, but they sure didn't run on diesel or gasoline.
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Old April 11th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #942
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True it's kinda pathetic hahahaa
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Old April 11th, 2012, 01:14 PM   #943
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I don't know what's worse, diesel trams on Qianmen Street or these horrors on Nanjing Road in Shanghai -

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Old April 11th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #944
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The diesel trams on Qianmen Street are worse, but the stupid tourist trains on Nanjing Road are more dangerous
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Old April 11th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #945
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Why can't they make the Qianmen tram capacitor-electric like those ones at the Shanghai Expo, those are seriously awesome buses.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 12:12 AM   #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Beijing Qianmen street tram

haha useless pantograph
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Old April 12th, 2012, 02:17 AM   #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Why can't they make the Qianmen tram capacitor-electric like those ones at the Shanghai Expo, those are seriously awesome buses.
Apparently those things are capacitor-electric ...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/newscenter...nt_8141281.htm
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Old April 14th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #948
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Aha, that's better then, just get rid of the hideous fake pantograph.
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Old April 14th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Apparently those things are capacitor-electric ...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/newscenter...nt_8141281.htm
Well, that makes them slightly less horrible

How do they compare in size to the original 1920's trams? I've seen original 1920's trams from other parts of the world, and they were tiny single car trams. This replica is a HUGE single car tram. Were the originals also this massive?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #950
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I heard Beijing will return a real tram, with overhead wire and pantograph , mainly in west suburb around 2013 or 2015, called western suburban line.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #951
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Do you think under "suburban rail" they hid such ineffective thing like a tram? Beijing needs dozens of heavy rail lines! Metros and heavy railways.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #952
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The tram is simply a tourist attraction, it doesn't have any real transportation functions.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 01:07 PM   #953
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So Wikipedia claims.
Quote:
August 10, 2009: Planning authorities announced a change in plan for the Western Suburban Line from a train line to a tourist trolley line with operation speed of 20 km/h.
From above quote it might be that the Qianmen tourist train is moving north-west... There are at least supposed to be real trams, used for transport at higher speeds than 20 km/h, in the east, around CBD, maybe Tongzhou-CBD, and one of the Yizhuang plans also showcase trams heavily. But trams seems to be stock in trade to show a new district plan's greenery, whether there actually will be some with right of way remains to be seen.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #954
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Modern trams, with right of way, are not ineffective, though they are considerably more expensive to buy and run than buses. Without right of way they will be just as stuck in traffic as the rest of Beijing surface transport.

Speaking of which, what Beijing really needs in addition to the metro system, is a working bus rapid transit system with exclusive right of way for most of the route. Beijing has a huge if aged fleet of buses that spend all day stuck in traffic. If that fleet could run at normal speed (same or higher than metro speeds) the buses wouldn't be overfilled. If the fleet was modernised it wouldn't be uncomfortable either, and take away a lot of the strain from the metro system.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #955
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I might be mistaken, but when i was in Beijing some time ago, i saw only new buses. It didnt look like old fleet
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Old April 18th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
If that fleet could run at normal speed (same or higher than metro speeds) the buses wouldn't be overfilled.
that doesn't make sense
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Old April 19th, 2012, 05:05 AM   #957
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The metro travels at 60 km/h (except the airport express, and hopefully some of the newer lines), the speed limit at the main rings and express ways is 80 (sometimes 100). That is, if the buses weren't stuck in traffic. One bus travelling at 60 km/h has the same throughput at three buses travelling at 20 km/h.

My argument of overfilling is a little simplified. The amount and mode of transport people use is not a fixed amount. Buses at 60 km/h would be more competitive to other modes of transport than buses at 20 km/h, so more people would use them, and people could take them who would otherwise stay at home. In Beijing buses are significantly cheaper than metro, so taking a bus is a more attractive option if you have limited funds. Were they the same price or more expensive than metro (a possibility if you don't have a Yikatong card, as metro fare is fixed at 2.00 no matter the distance while long-distance bus fares are by the km), this might change. The metros would be more overcrowded and the buses less so.

If Beijing really wanted to reduce car traffic, a quick way could, ironically, be to increase the metro fares dramatically. In Beijing people with cars don't drive to save money, it is the most expensive way to travel, but because even with traffic it is more convenient than overcrowded metro cars. Higher fares would mean less crowding, but at a cost to those who currently are using the system and might not be able to do after the fare increase. If the buses had no fare increase, they would be correspondingly fuller. Consequence: Less cars, less use of metro, more buses in dedicated lanes.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 05:15 AM   #958
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The key problem is the subway system is not sufficient to cover the huge metro area. With housing being built past the 5th ring road these days, the system has not kept pace with the urban development. Once that's done and it's feasible to ride the subway to get to places, then BRT can fill in the rest.

For a city the size of Beijing, a BRT-based solution will not work. It'll just mean too many buses on the road, causing a different kind of congestion.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 06:32 AM   #959
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I fully agree with that if it were an either/or. Today's metro system is in a middle position. It is slow for real long distance travel (from west to east for instance), while the stations are too far apart for short distance. It is overcrowded. There are sometimes horrible walks to transit from one line to another, and the elevators are inadequate. As the population gets more elderly this will matter greatly (though the metro systems in Hong Kong, Seoul, or Bangkok are no better).

But the metro is efficient and can ship great volumes relatively quickly and conveniently. Increases in network and frequency are required. As Beijingers become more affluent so will getting a seat be. The metro system will be the backbone.

What really would be great would be a high-speed backbone connecting the Beijing HSR stations and a couple other municipal stations integrated with the metro system. Today it is quicker (if much more expensive) for me to get to Tianjin than to parts of Beijing. I guess the R1 (express 1 or 6 line) would help.

A well-integrated BRT will help greatly here. Long-distance it can take the routes that the metro don't do well, and it can take you the last mile. A night bus system would also be nice. Beijing could also do trams reasonably well in areas where that make sense.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #960
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Moving people to suburban towns is probably the only long term solution, instead of building in a circular fashion around Beijing, having a few residential towns with express commuter rail service to the center of Beijing is better. The government has already started building American style park and rides for some residential areas along metro lines. I believe a BRT system works the best on longer more direct routes, which is already served by metro, instead bus' role is to fill in the last mile for metro riders, for that Beijing already have bus only lanes in many downtown roads. Right now what they are doing is building even more metro lines, which in a way will solve the problem, though rather expensively.
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