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Old January 9th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #1101
particlez
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*in my previous post, I should have said RIGHT turns, not left turns

The tram's speed is usually faster than pedestrian speed. Except when the tram itself is stuck behind other loading/unloading trams, red lights, etc. Riding a bicycle through central Hong Kong sounds more like an action movie than a plausible alternative. If you don't worry about safety, I'm sure the bike would be faster than any form of surface transport. The tram line also has a spur to Happy Valley, so riders will have to pay attention before boarding the tram. 80 minutes seems quick for the entire journey. Without traffic, maybe.

The tram won't be dismantled, and it's hugely attractive to tourists and photography fans (your views aren't obstructed by glass), but it's not as flexible as the bus, and obviously much slower than the subway.

The tram is useful in the areas that are not served by the MTR, namely the far western island and Happy Valley. The traffic in these areas isn't as intense, so the tram moves a bit faster too.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #1102
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Trams mixed in traffic make no sense, except where the traffic is low, or for tourist purpose (like the Qianmen and future Western Suburban trams). Separate lanes dedicated for tram or BRT only make sense when traffic warrant it, which it definitely would do in much of Beijing (or Manhattan). Whether BRT or tram is mostly a question of economics and comfort. Modern trams are more comfortable than busses, but also more expensive. Metro is superior in throughput and longer distance travel, but like with Beijing CBD, a metro station at every skyscraper is not a viable alternative, and it takes about 5 minutes to get into and 5 minutes to get out of a Beijing metro station. That is not attractive for short trips.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 12:07 AM   #1103
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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Tram is the most sustainable kind of transport, actuallu. And I really do not understand why China spends so miuch money on building metros while neglecting tram at all.
Trams are a waste of time in China in most situations at this stage of the game. If you want something quick and cheap to implement you build BRT if you want something fast and high capacity you build a metro. Tram/LRT is a nice mix of the two but transit situations in china are so polarized that there is not need for them. You either need a cheap feeder connection or a high capacity trunk line to a huge swath of the city. However in more established systems like Beijing and Shanghai I think we will see more LRT/tram projects showing up in the near future.

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Trams mixed in traffic make no sense, except where the traffic is low, or for tourist purpose (like the Qianmen and future Western Suburban trams). Separate lanes dedicated for tram or BRT only make sense when traffic warrant it, which it definitely would do in much of Beijing (or Manhattan). Whether BRT or tram is mostly a question of economics and comfort. Modern trams are more comfortable than busses, but also more expensive. Metro is superior in throughput and longer distance travel, but like with Beijing CBD, a metro station at every skyscraper is not a viable alternative, and it takes about 5 minutes to get into and 5 minutes to get out of a Beijing metro station. That is not attractive for short trips.
Given the way the stop spacings of many Chinese metros are handled (too long for local traffic too short for metropolitan/crosstown traffic) I would say 10-20 years from now there will be an explosion of circulator, tram and/or AGT systems feeding into the metro and the emergence of RER-like crosstown rapid railways.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 06:45 AM   #1104
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Would that make it the busiest metro line in all of China (including the HKSAR) then? Or would the MTR's Island Line be busier...?
Nope, Shanghai Metro's Line 2 is busier.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #1105
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Trams are a waste of time in China in most situations at this stage of the game. If you want something quick and cheap to implement you build BRT if you want something fast and high capacity you build a metro.
What is involved in "building" a "BRT"?
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Given the way the stop spacings of many Chinese metros are handled (too long for local traffic too short for metropolitan/crosstown traffic) I would say 10-20 years from now there will be an explosion of circulator, tram and/or AGT systems feeding into the metro and the emergence of RER-like crosstown rapid railways.
They should extend functional mass transit throughout the urbanized areas before contemplating express lines and/or mini metros. The Paris metro was around a long time before the RER came into existence.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #1107
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BRTs can range from express bus lines to "almost" elevated light rail lines. Beijing has large distances and high congestion, so surface traffic is bound to be slow. A functional BRT would most likely have grade separation, and that's really not so different from traditional mass transit.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:49 AM   #1108
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BRTs can range from express bus lines to "almost" elevated light rail lines.
Precisely.

An "express" bus is exactly a bus which skips stops. Which a metro is doing anyway.

So what about public transit that makes stops, and serves areas between metro stops and lines?

How about expanding trolley lines to serve the newly opened metro stations?
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Old January 10th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #1109
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Still, A bus even BRT-like can get aboard 100 passengers, no more while a good articulated tram might take about 300. And building a tram line is just a bit more expensive than a BRT line and at the same time way less costly than a metro line.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #1110
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Could you tell me all exact and possible information on the rolling stock for Beijing metro per lines? Interested in cars' dimensions, manufacturer and photos. Thanks.
Any info?
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Old January 10th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #1111
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Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Planning
  • By the end of 2015 Beijing metro will add 133km to reach 575km
  • Line 8 phase III appropved, Wangfujing to Wufutang, 16km, 14.4 billion yuan
  • New airport line approved, Beijing South to new airport, 37km
  • Line 16 approved, 36km
  • By 2016 existing metro plus U/C is 664km
  • 3 lines on planning stage: Line 3, Line 12 and Northeast line

--Beijing Daily
Northeast would be the 17 line, right? Any planned intermediate metro stations between Beijing South and Daxing airport? Reports claim "The new airport, to be called Beijing Daxing International Airport, is scheduled to open in 2017. The recently released plans show a new hub that will cover 55 square kilometers (about 21 square miles) and include eight runways.

Plans also show an integrated ground transportation hub, which will shuttle passengers into Beijing with a journey time of 30 minutes on a high-speed railway. A slower route on the city's underground will also be available." And a rail link between the two airports is reported as well (without any details given).

What is the exact location of this airport, any Google Maps outline or similar?
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Old January 11th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #1112
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Still, A bus even BRT-like can get aboard 100 passengers, no more while a good articulated tram might take about 300. And building a tram line is just a bit more expensive than a BRT line and at the same time way less costly than a metro line.
Yes Trams are very efficient way to replace BRT lines, much more capacity than a articulated bus, but at the same time much less work than a building a metro line.

Take the example of Paris who just opened and extended a tram line which run on the "boulevard marechaux" (the continuous boulevard which encircle Paris and act as a separation between Paris and the near suburb)

The line T3a and T3b if put together cover 22km which is about 65% of the boulevard marechaux



T3a which covers the 12,5km distance of the line in about 27 minutes (before that, the articulated buses with reserved bus lanes needed at least 55 minutes)

T3b needs 25 minutes for the 10km it covers (part of the line has steep slope). The artics needed 1 full hour if not more to cover the same distance.

In terms of trafic, T3a already transported 40 millions passengers per year before the extension, so it is a very useful line.

Also another advantage compared to buses, trams use electric power which is much cheaper and much powerful than diesel powered buses, so the speeds are much more higher.

Some stretch allow a speed of 60-70km/h (all of that in the middle of a boulevard, separated from cars but with grade crossings).

So being to see by myself how this changed the transportation landscape of Paris, I really do think Chinese cities should consider trams and not always think of BRTs or metro lines.

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Last edited by dale88; January 11th, 2013 at 01:19 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 12:21 AM   #1113
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I really do think Chinese cities should consider trams and not always think of BRTs or metro lines.
Kaohsiung is building a circular tram line kind of like Paris
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Old January 11th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #1114
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What is involved in "building" a "BRT"?
My point exactly. Just build stations in the middle of the road and paint some lines. Quick and Dirty

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Originally Posted by particlez View Post
They should extend functional mass transit throughout the urbanized areas before contemplating express lines and/or mini metros.
That's why I said 10-20 years from now. By say 2030, all Tier I cities will have a beast of a network and most Tier 2 cities will have a well developed network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
The Paris metro was around a long time before the RER came into existence.
Paris had Transilien for a long time pre-RER. China has NOTHING but metros.

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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Any info?
all B size trains at the moment 2.8m wide 19m long
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Old January 11th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #1115
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Metro and trains are the only modes of transport that can move massive amounts of people around from point to point, but the role of busses is often ignored. They are taking the brunt of Beijing's transportation need and will continue doing so. When not stuck in traffic they can be faster than metro, also long distance. The nearest bus stop will always be nearer than the nearest metro station, and it only takes a minute to enter a bus contrasted with five to descend into the maw of the metro.

Metro wins on convenience and predictability. It may not be fastest but you have a pretty good idea when you will arrive, and you have a pretty good idea what lines to take. With busses you don't know when they arrive, where they are going, and how long it will take them to get there. Even with Google Maps or equivalent it is a bit of a challenge.

Most of Beijing is covered by public transport, except at night time, leaving two major problems, traffic and integration. The backbone of the transport system, the busses, express busses, and trolley busses, spend most of their day stuck in traffic. An extended BRT system would liberate these buses to ship a lot more people much faster. (An LRT system could be faster still, but I agree it may not be the best system for most cities yet, or for the most part. Chinese cities are changing fast, and it is more expensive to lay and uproot tracks. In some cases it might be a relatively inexpensive alternative to metro.)

Beijing has many modes of transportation, airplanes, high speed rail, regional and local rail, metro, BRT light, different types of busses, silly tourist trams, funicular, cars, trucks,motorcycles, bicycles and other human-powered vehicles, pedestrians, horse carts, taxis and bicycle taxis. Low-speed maglev, canal tourist boats and who knows straddling busses are planned. Pick a mode of transportation, chances are you will find it in Beijing.

Most accept Yikatong, a success story, and the bus system is integrated, but overwhelming in number of busses and lines, and not well signed and without a realtime information system. But the rail system in particular is not integrated with the rest, nor with itself.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #1116
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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Paris had Transilien for a long time pre-RER. China has NOTHING but metros.
China does have railways.

For example, take the existing railway Beijing-Zhangjiakou.
It has a number of stations in Beijing:
Qinghuayuan
Qinghe
Shahe
Changping
Nankou
Dongyuan
Juyongguan
Sanpu
Qinglongqiao
Badaling
Xibozi
Kangzhuang.

The problem lies with use.

How many passenger trains saily now actually stop at, say, Kangzhuang station?
And how many trains ought to serve that route?
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Old January 11th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #1117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
China does have railways.

For example, take the existing railway Beijing-Zhangjiakou.
It has a number of stations in Beijing:
Qinghuayuan
Qinghe
Shahe
Changping
Nankou
Dongyuan
Juyongguan
Sanpu
Qinglongqiao
Badaling
Xibozi
Kangzhuang.

The problem lies with use.

How many passenger trains saily now actually stop at, say, Kangzhuang station?
And how many trains ought to serve that route?
Exactly its not the physical infrastructure i'm talking about its the service and how the corridors are used. Beijing has railways flying in all directions but regional and suburban service is non existent apart from S2 which you talked about.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 07:53 PM   #1118
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My point exactly. Just build stations in the middle of the road and paint some lines. Quick and Dirty
Paris had Transilien for a long time pre-RER. China has NOTHING but metros.
I thought we were talking about tramlines (like the Hong Kong tram line) running on surface streets through the city? There's a huge difference between short distance, slow speed tramways and RER-like suburban commuter rail/urban express lines.

Trams are comfortable and can transport large numbers of people. However tramways like the Hong Kong tram wouldn't be efficient through much of central Beijing because of the existing congestion. You'd simply run into too much traffic; left turning cars, other trams loading/unloading/red lights/stalled vehicles in intersections/etc. The trams are railed vehicles, and do not have the flexibility to move around the obstructions.

You could argue that placing dedicated tracks over previous traffic lanes would set aside room, and you'd be right. However many of the wheeled vehicles are service vehicles and have no alternative than to make the remaining lanes even more congested.

The Parisian tramlines don't run through the most congested parts of the city. The long-term plans have the lines being built outside the core. Even though Paris' boulevards are famously wide, you won't see tramlines from ultra busy areas like Les Halles to the Arc de Triomphe. It would be great for tourists and photography buffs, but it'd be snail-like in speed.

The Transilien and RER aren't the same. One is the old commuter rail, and the RER setup has allowed the commuter trains to function as express lines via the heart of Paris. It's NOT the same as surface trams. The RER has its own dedicated, underground tracks. Paris is a gold standard of urban transport, and Beijing still needs to fill in the gaps in its service area before it should contemplate a similar system.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #1119
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Still, A bus even BRT-like can get aboard 100 passengers, no more while a good articulated tram might take about 300. And building a tram line is just a bit more expensive than a BRT line and at the same time way less costly than a metro line.
I think for short travels between metro station even BRT is overkill, you might as well just catch a regular bus. A tram is not ideal for downtown Beijing because it travels on tracks, once a tram is mixed with automobile traffic it'll be chaos. If it's grade separated then it eats into the already scarce surface street area. BTW the 25m bus Beijing plans to buy to run on the BRT line has a capacity of about 230, in reality it'll probably take 300 in rush hour, the existing 18m BRT bus has a designed capacity of 200.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 12:33 AM   #1120
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The Parisian tramlines don't run through the most congested parts of the city. The long-term plans have the lines being built outside the core. Even though Paris' boulevards are famously wide, you won't see tramlines from ultra busy areas like Les Halles to the Arc de Triomphe. It would be great for tourists and photography buffs, but it'd be snail-like in speed.
Paris does not have so urgent need for surface trams BECAUSE the Paris metro is so dense. With 214 km of lines in total and 301 stations which counting transfers comprise 384 stops, the average distance is just 548 m. Within the 87 square km of Paris city, there are 245 stations.

The central city of Beijing, of Dongcheng and Xicheng districts, is also 87 square km - exactly as big as Paris.

How many Beijing Subway stations are within the 87 square km of Dongcheng and Xicheng districts?
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