daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 12th, 2013, 01:17 AM   #1121
urgel23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 247
Likes (Received): 16


http://www.cityrailtransit.com/maps/beijing_map.htm
urgel23 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 12th, 2013, 04:58 AM   #1122
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Any planned intermediate metro stations between Beijing South and Daxing airport? Reports claim "The new airport, to be called Beijing Daxing International Airport, is scheduled to open in 2017. The recently released plans show a new hub that will cover 55 square kilometers (about 21 square miles) and include eight runways. ?
Per a recent map from ditiezu.com, the new airport will have 6 runways in 2 phases, plus a military runway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Beijing 2nd airport plan



Current Phase (in red): 4 runways, 72 million PAX
After phase II: 6 runways, 100 million PAX

Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
What is the exact location of this airport, any Google Maps outline or similar?
It' located crossing Beijing Daxing and Langfang, Hebei Province. This Google map inlcudes the location of new airport, Beijing, Tianjin and Langfang. (highlighted A is the new airport)

big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 05:22 AM   #1123
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

back to topic, yesterday (Jan-11)'s metro one-day ridership, Unit: Wan trips (10,000 trips)



Line 1: 1.3341 mln
Line 2: 1.3140 mln
Line 5: 0.9487 mln
Line 6: 0.4137 mln
Line 8: 0.1759 mln
Line 9: 0.2251 mln
Line 10: 1.4421 mln
Line 13: 0.8221 mln
Line 15: 0.1233 mln
Line Batong: 0.3211 mln
Line Changping: 0.1251 mln
Line Fangshan: 0.0582 mln
Line Airport: 0.0286 mln
Line Yizhuang: 0.1472 mln

Total: 7.4792 mln

(ditiezu.com)
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #1124
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
It' located crossing Beijing Daxing and Langfang, Hebei Province. This Google map inlcudes the location of new airport, Beijing, Tianjin and Langfang. (highlighted A is the new airport)
Made a rough Google map based on the one above, showing the three airports, Beijing South, and the lines between them (as well as the existing Airline Express and Daxing line "extension").

It seemed superfluous to have both a regular rail link (half hour travel time) and a metro starting from Beijing South. If the metro line was an extension of the Daxing line the extension wouldn't be so long, but it would not serve many.

So Daxing will get the world's largest IKEA store and the world's largest airport. Lucky them.

See from the detail map a more precise location (and that a village is about to be obliterated), not incorporated yet.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #1125
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by urgel23 View Post
This map does not mark the borders of central city districs.

But what it does mark is Inner City walls - line 2.

Beijing Metro line 2 is 23,1 km long, and has 18 stops.

Average stop distance 1300 m.

It is obvious that unlike central Paris, where the average Metro stop distance is about 500 m, Beijing inner city is not easily reachable by metro. A surface mass transportation with frequent stops is needed to reach destinations between metro stations. Such as trolleybus.

For completeness, the other metro in Inner City are the 4 lines across the city. Line 1 has 5 stations between Fuxingmen and Jianguomen (6,8 km, 10 minutes), Line 4 has 5 stations between Xizhimen and Xuanwumen, of which Xidan was counted on line 1, Line 5 has 5 stations between Yonghegong and Chongwenmen, of which Dongdan was counted on Line 1 (12 minutes trip) and line 6 has 4 stops between Chegongzhuang and Chaoyangmen, of which Pinganli was counted on line 4 and Dongsi on line 5. Grand total of 15 stops in Inner City and 18 on the walls. 33 combined. Compare with the 245 of somewhat larger area of Paris. What is the area of Beijing inner city?

Oh, and Daxing airport obviously does need a metro line besides railway. The railway would serve only a few stations in central Beijing... a metro line connecting the airport with numerous stops in southern suburbs would not be superfluous.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 04:16 PM   #1126
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

In both cases you would have to get to Beijing South Station first. One of the alternatives would then be to transfer to a direct train for a half hour trip for the 40 km. The other would be to transfer to/stay on 4/Daxing/Airport line going basically the same route only a little less direct, and considerably slower. There are today 14 stations to Tiangongyuan, and then it would probably be another 5 stations or so to the airport (minimum 3, maximum 8 I'd say). Travel time I would guess no less than an hour. Unless there is a significant price difference or you happened to live in Daxing there would be no benefit for anybody to take metro.

A somewhat more interesting metro scenario would be to extend line 8 to the airport. This would go a little more direct to the airport, probably at about the same travel time, but it would be better for those that find it more convenient to transfer to 8 instead of 4, but again of limited interest for those who want from home/work to the airport.

If Beijing South were the starting point it would be more appealing to get to the airport by high-speed rail, Beijing South - Daxing Airport - Langfang (- Tianjin - Binhai) or Gaobeidian - Daxing Airport - Beijing South, but the airport is so far away from the main lines that an airport stop on the way for the city centre is unattractive for those not destined for the airport.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #1127
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

The airport-to-airport route would be longer, 65 km for a direct route, at most 80 km for a more indirect one. Extending the Airport Express would be one solution, e.g. adding tunnel to Beijing South and continue that way. Extending/moving the proposed S6 (Shunyi-Tongzhou-Yizhuang->Daxing) a more suburban approach.

However the AE is supposedly reaching capacity (that's not my personal experience though), and S6 seems slow. I have seen some talk about a direct link CBD-airport, which makes sense as the CBD is a major customer of the airport, and presumably the next one as well. As you can see CBD is nearly on a straight line between the airports (well, Communications University/Dalianpo is on that line). Thus airport-R1 line-airport would make good sense.

If the goal were to ease transfer between the airports, and not (only) transport to/from the airports, a lot of transfer time could be saved if the transport was on the inside of the security barrier of both airports, making them virtual terminals of the other airport. Done right this could be done on the same line as transport to/from the airports.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #1128
Geography
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 447
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Where is line 4? Did its name change?
Geography no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 03:50 AM   #1129
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

^ good catch. Ditiezu must have missed Line 4 and Line Daxing data.

Per news, Jan 11 recorded a total ridership of 8.691 million, so Line 4' plus Line Daxing's ridership on Jan 11 should be 1.2118 million.

Last edited by big-dog; January 13th, 2013 at 03:58 AM.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 12:12 PM   #1130
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

I find it hard to believe that line 13 has almost the same ridership as 5, it has 2/3 the number of stations, much lower frequency and is a lot less crowded. OTOH many of the 5 riders travel from/to Tiantongyuan, and some move on to Yizhuang, while only a tourist would take 13 end to end.

But that also shows the limits of this statistic. It doesn't really convey how busy a line is, and is also based on conjecture. The system know time and place of entry and of exit, but not the route. I assume it uses a shortest trip heuristic, which should be mostly correct, but people can elect a slightly longer one if it is more convenient. As the system gets more complex it is harder to predict. If I enter the 4 line and exit the 5 line, what were the intermediate lines, 1, 2, 6, 10, or 13? (By assuming no loitering, and knowing the train schedule, it could deduce the likely route. Unfortunately queuing is a form of organised loitering, and there is a lot of that in the Beijing metro.)

Furthermore the Guomao station on the 1 line is very busy, while Yong'anli, the more central neighbour on the same line, is not at all busy.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #1131
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

The distance of the airport actually cries for a faster rail link, Beijing South pretty well connected from various parts of Beijing, a dedicated 350km/h line linking Beijing South and the airport will be desirable and shorten the trip to less than 15 minutes.
__________________
The building under construction next to Shanghai Tower is Oriental Financial Center. The "plot" next to Jinmao is reserved green belt and no skyscraper will be built there.
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #1132
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

Yes, the new airport would be outside the 7th ring straight south, while the existing PEK airport is inside the 6th ring in the northeast.

The 11 "new cities" (suburbs with ambitions of becoming more city-like) are mostly scattered around the 6th ring as well. Otherwise most residential projects seem between 4th and 5th ring while the urbanisation is most intense between 2nd and 3rd, increasingly between 3rd and 4th, especially in the east/BCD. (The inside of the 2nd ring seems to become more "old town"-ish.) Add to that that the most attractive places to live are in the north and west (mountains, nature, cleaner air) while most economic activity is in the east (CBD, Bohai corridor), except tech and finance in the north, and a new super-Tiantongyuan in the southwest at Fangshan, Beijing seems destined for a lot of commuting in the future, much of it long distance.

I would have wished a new airport to be to the southeast of Beijing South rather than south, more in the direction of Langfang city, then it would be almost halfway to Tianjin and on the Tianjin and Shanghai HSR lines. I would wished a Haidian-CBD-Beijing South backbone, with Beijing South connecting to the new airport and CBD to the existing one, and a feeder branch to Fangshan. In addition a suburban line connecting the "new cities" and the two airports.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 04:32 PM   #1133
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Could someone explain precisely where on this map are
Beijing Railway Station
Beijing East Railway Station
Beijing North railway station
Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang high speed railway, which people are protesting against?

Suppose that a railway were build from southwest to northeast through southeastern outskirts of Beijing, as follows:
branching from the new Shijiazhuang-Beijing West high speed railway after the now opened Zhuozhou Station
passing Daxing Airport, making a station there
going through central Beijing in tunnels, either Beijing railway station or if this is too near then Beijing East station
continuing through Beijing Northeast airport, making a station there
and then joining Beijing-Chengde high speed railway

Would it be useful?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1134
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Paris does not have so urgent need for surface trams BECAUSE the Paris metro is so dense. With 214 km of lines in total and 301 stations which counting transfers comprise 384 stops, the average distance is just 548 m. Within the 87 square km of Paris city, there are 245 stations.

The central city of Beijing, of Dongcheng and Xicheng districts, is also 87 square km - exactly as big as Paris.

How many Beijing Subway stations are within the 87 square km of Dongcheng and Xicheng districts?
*Sighs*

Paris could have built surface trams throughout the city--But didn't. It didn't build surface trams because they DON'T WORK EFFICIENTLY in dense, congested, environments. The grade separated metro + RER suburban/urban express + assorted surface trams in less trafficked suburban areas make sense. Running a surface tram through a dense neighborhood doesn't. The point is to continue extending GRADE SEPARATED mass transit throughout the urbanized Beijing area, gradually filling in the gaps in coverage. This goes for just about every densely populated, large urban area.

You want something akin to Paris' subway network--notice its trams do not run through the heart of the city? Its population density and monumental center are actually quite similar to that of Beijing.
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #1135
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
*Sighs*

Paris could have built surface trams throughout the city--But didn't.
She DID. Central Paris has had surface tram network since 1855.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #1136
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Could someone explain precisely where on this map are
Beijing Railway Station
Beijing East Railway Station
Beijing North railway station
Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang high speed railway, which people are protesting against?

Suppose that a railway were build from southwest to northeast through southeastern outskirts of Beijing, as follows:
branching from the new Shijiazhuang-Beijing West high speed railway after the now opened Zhuozhou Station
passing Daxing Airport, making a station there
going through central Beijing in tunnels, either Beijing railway station or if this is too near then Beijing East station
continuing through Beijing Northeast airport, making a station there
and then joining Beijing-Chengde high speed railway

Would it be useful?
I made a map with a backbone configuration South Station - Fengtai Station - West Station - Zhichunlu - Sanyuanqiao - Beijing East - Beijing South, with connections to the two airports and Fangshan. Kind of a "money no objection" play.

Also played with different configurations to connect the Daxing airport to existing HSR infrastructure, from Zhouzhou, Langfang, and Yizhuang. Yizhuang didn't seem very realistic (but an alternative for S6). Zhouzhou - Daxing Airport - Langfang would shunt/bypass Beijing completely. (This to be used with the airport map.)

It is not clear to me what the role of Fengtai HSR station is to be in the scheme of things. Is it to replace Beijing West, or something else?
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #1137
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post

It is not clear to me what the role of Fengtai HSR station is to be in the scheme of things. Is it to replace Beijing West, or something else?
Is Fengtai a synonym of Beijing North?

My idea was to surround Beijing with a "circle" of tangent HSR lines. In such a way that the HSR trains could pass through more than one major station.

After all, for fast connections it is not awfully vital to have a single stop in Beijing. If a Shanghai-Beijing express train skips the stops at Langfang and Jinan in 4:48, yet thinks it acceptable to dump the passengers in Beijing South... then this 4:48 would not be shortened if the train continues after the stop in Beijing South. If the train makes BOTH Beijing South and e. g. Beijing Main station, it would give more options to passengers. Compare Tokaido Shinkansen where Nozomi stop at both Shinagawa and Tokyo main. And Shin-Yokohama, too.

If each high speed line makes do with a single terminus in Beijing, and different one in each case, this makes connections THROUGH Beijing inconvenient.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #1138
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
She DID. Central Paris has had surface tram network since 1855.
You do realize urban planning had to accommodate the invention of motorized vehicles? Unless you go back in time and get rid of cars and trucks, surface trams in large, congested cities will not be efficient.

It's a reason why surface trams no longer run through the heart of Paris (or just about any other large, congested urban area).



With your logic, there's technically a choice: nineteenth century, pre-motorized vehicle era Paris with its surface trams

-or-

Actually extending grade separated mass transit, and leaving surface railed transport to less congested areas.
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #1139
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

No, Fengtai is the Next Great HSR thing in Beijing supposedly, between Beijing South and Beijing West, connected by the 10 and future 16 lines.

Today's Beijing North is Xizhimen station (loosely connected with 13, 2, and 4). It is a medium sized station with no HSR. Future Beijing North I don't know.

An outer HSR ring would make most sense if it connected the "new cities", iow ran along the 6th ring. I added one such ring to the Beijing Backbone map (plus the Beijing New Cities map), in green.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2013, 12:56 AM   #1140
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,302
Likes (Received): 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
With your logic, there's technically a choice: nineteenth century, pre-motorized vehicle era Paris with its surface trams

-or-

Actually extending grade separated mass transit, and leaving surface railed transport to less congested areas.
- or -

you give cars a couple less lanes to drive in in streets with trams or BRT. The winning proposal for Beijing CBD extension includes trams (and incidentally HSR to Beijing South and PEK airport).
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
beijing, metro

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium