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Old January 14th, 2013, 01:23 AM   #1141
Sunfuns
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I think particlez has a point, how many large (5 million +) and dense metropolitan areas do we know with extensive tram systems in the central areas? Moscow perhaps? Haven't been there for a long time...
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Old January 14th, 2013, 01:29 AM   #1142
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^That plan DOES have grade separation when crossing the larger surface streets. Plus it runs along the river, which obviously has fewer intersections. Plus much of it goes through a newly redeveloped area, and is easier to route vehicular traffic away from the tramline.

In terms of population, density, and overall congestion, Beijing is much closer to Paris or New York--cities which rely overwhelmingly on grade separated mass transit in the core, than to medium sized Central European cities that have functioning street level tramways in mixed traffic.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #1143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post

An outer HSR ring would make most sense if it connected the "new cities", iow ran along the 6th ring. I added one such ring to the Beijing Backbone map (plus the Beijing New Cities map), in green.
IMO, the "new cities" could take account of the outer HSR tangentials, not so much vice versa.

What I think about is to design the HSR though/bypasses to allow easy HSR though trains, which do not waste too much time either in station stops they do make or in curved/slow old urban tracks.

Whether Guangzhou-Beijing HSR trains terminate in old Beijing West or new Fengtai station... how should they best get THROUGH Beijing to reach Beijing-Chengde high speed railway as Guangzhou-Harbin HSR trains?
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Old January 14th, 2013, 03:42 PM   #1144
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speaking of particlez, have any toxic particles made their way to the underground during Smogfest 2013?
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Old January 14th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #1145
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The number of HSR stations in Beijing and their lack of integration with each other and (still, but improving) the rest of the public transport system is a problem, though it might be an alternative to opt to go through e.g. Tianjin instead. The trains may be a little slower but you save in travel time. I haven't checked the schedules, but I expect that if you want to go e.g. Shijiazhuang - Chengde the time navigating Beijing traffic would more than annul the benefit of the 350 km/h backbone.

The benefit of a Zhouzhou-Daxing Airport-Langfang shunt would thus primarily to allow cities on the Beijing-Wuhan line (including Beijing) and cities on the Beijing-Shanghai line (including Beijing) HSR access to the airport, making it truly a regional airport instead of a local one.

Likewise the benefit of having a high-speed (or at least higher-than-metro speed) ring around central Beijing would not be for out-of-towners not having to breathe Beijing air, but for commuters in the satellite cities. They, like the rest of Beijing, look like planned with a pair of compasses. Given some billions of yuans it would be fairly straightforward to construct a suburban ring, thus avoiding the suburbanites clogging the Beijing arteries. That is presumably roughly the idea of the suburban lines, S1-S7, though the lines don't form a circle and the one existing line, S2, doesn't move at higher than metro speed. Top speed is a respectable if unimpressive 160 km/h, but it takes 82 minutes to move 82 km, for an actual speed of 60 km/h. For urban transport the top speed is not very interesting.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #1146
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The distance by rail to Daxing is reported as 37 km.
Shenzhen-Zhangmutou is 44 km on slow speed railway, and nonstop trains go the distance in 22 minutes.

A shunt Zhuzhou-Daxing Airport-Beijing Station-Beijing Airport would allow passengers on trains from Shijiazhuang to get off on either Beijing airport depending on which flight fits them, or go to Beijing city if that is their goal.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
IMO, the "new cities" could take account of the outer HSR tangentials, not so much vice versa.

What I think about is to design the HSR though/bypasses to allow easy HSR though trains, which do not waste too much time either in station stops they do make or in curved/slow old urban tracks.

Whether Guangzhou-Beijing HSR trains terminate in old Beijing West or new Fengtai station... how should they best get THROUGH Beijing to reach Beijing-Chengde high speed railway as Guangzhou-Harbin HSR trains?
It's already in the works, the only missing link is the connection tunnel between Beijing West and Beijing Station (East). Beijing West is not a terminal station but Beijing Station is, so that tunnel will allow the latter to become a through station as well. An incoming train from Guangzhou will stop at Beijing West first, then proceed into the tunnel and stops at Beijing Station, from there it can continue onto the Beijing-Shengyang PDL which won't open for another four or five years.

Alternatively, we can bypass Beijing Station alltogether, the train will stop at Beijing West and continue to Beijing South using the existing connection line, and from there to other northeastern destinations.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #1148
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isn't BERS a separate one out by the 4th Ring? Is BRS also sometimes called BERS?
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Old February 14th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #1149
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Beijing Line 10 will become a full circle on May 5th, 2013.

Here is the news thread from Xinhua News Agency:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/energy/201..._124338112.htm
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Old February 14th, 2013, 07:14 PM   #1150
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Great news, less than 3 month to go! Line 10 ridership will reach new high though its already #1 of all lines.
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 08:37 PM   #1151
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I did a chart that give a better idea of the Beijing Subway historic progress.


I also put, for reference, the progress of São Paulo city metro, at top 5 of most active systems in the world (by number of daily users), that was started almost togheter of Beijing's one.




Scary, not?
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 09:25 PM   #1152
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Cool.

Could you do a cumulative graph of the number of stations (transfer stations not counted double or triple)?

And perhaps a cumulative graph of network length in kilometers?
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Old March 4th, 2013, 06:55 PM   #1153
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Is it the only case of Beijing when trains upon arrival on the station switch off their headlights? I've seen that nowhere else.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 04:59 AM   #1154
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Beijing subway ridership hit record high of 9.4107 million on March 1.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #1155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
You do realize urban planning had to accommodate the invention of motorized vehicles? Unless you go back in time and get rid of cars and trucks, surface trams in large, congested cities will not be efficient.

It's a reason why surface trams no longer run through the heart of Paris (or just about any other large, congested urban area).
There are lots of surface trams running in Vienna and last time I looked at it the invention of private motorized vehicles made it even to this remote place...

As a matter of fact, a 2 lane street with tram tracks has a higher transportation capacity in total than a 2 lane street without trams. Sure, traffic slows down a bit and the amount of car traffic is slightly reduced but this is several fold compensated by the much higher capacity of trams. This is especially true in a dense street net with lots of crossings where trams are vastly superior to cars because a lot more people can cross in much less time than by car. If roads don't have 2 lanes but more, trams are even easier to realize.

To put it in one line: There is no reason why big metropolis should not feature tram or light rail systems in addition to their metro networks - also in dense and central areas. Its all a question of needed capacities. Trams and light rails are great options if you need capacities between bus and metro.
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; March 5th, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #1156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I think particlez has a point, how many large (5 million +) and dense metropolitan areas do we know with extensive tram systems in the central areas? Moscow perhaps? Haven't been there for a long time...
Moscow and St-Petersburg. Moscow plans to develop its tram system that has been suffered lots of cuts under the previous mayor.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #1157
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As well as Toronto, Melbourne and Milan.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #1158
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Istanbul has a central tram line, but that system is hardly extensive (yet?).
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Old March 6th, 2013, 08:32 PM   #1159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
There are lots of surface trams running in Vienna and last time I looked at it the invention of private motorized vehicles made it even to this remote place...

As a matter of fact, a 2 lane street with tram tracks has a higher transportation capacity in total than a 2 lane street without trams. Sure, traffic slows down a bit and the amount of car traffic is slightly reduced but this is several fold compensated by the much higher capacity of trams. This is especially true in a dense street net with lots of crossings where trams are vastly superior to cars because a lot more people can cross in much less time than by car. If roads don't have 2 lanes but more, trams are even easier to realize.

To put it in one line: There is no reason why big metropolis should not feature tram or light rail systems in addition to their metro networks - also in dense and central areas. Its all a question of needed capacities. Trams and light rails are great options if you need capacities between bus and metro.
There's no reason--there is a reason. If at-grade trams are going to be stuck in traffic, it's a pretty compelling one.

Go back a few pages. I said that the congested centers of ultra large, congested cities and at-grade rail weren't an efficient combination. Vienna doesn't fit the initial description. At-grade works fine in smaller centers and the outskirts of large cities. Thus there's a reason why the Parisian (as an example of a large congested city) tram doesn't run through the busiest areas of Paris. Same thing with the existing and planned tram systems in China.

The Island tram in Hong Kong runs at-grade--and it's mind numbingly slow. It's great for photography buffs and for people who want to waste time, but otherwise it's not completely practical. Even if you miraculously got rid of the private cars, the crush of service vehicles will still make at-grade rail difficult.

With your logic, you might as well insist on trams running through the heart of Ginza, or Manhattan, or around the Arc de Triomphe.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #1160
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Quote:
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Moscow and St-Petersburg. Moscow plans to develop its tram system that has been suffered lots of cuts under the previous mayor.
The Moscow trams have their own ROW and rarely/never mix with other traffic.

And I agree with you about the austerity part. One of the BIGGEST issues with urban planning is getting actual funding. The urban planners themselves aren't stupid, 'cept they often don't have an opportunity to implement their ideas.
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