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Old June 7th, 2013, 10:47 PM   #1301
_Night City Dream_
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The point is that here only passengers entering the system are counted. We do not count passengers who change lines. Whilst Beijing metro does for line 10. So does Yamanote line which is formally a separate line. Yamanote counts every passenger entering each of its stations.

If you really count each passenger entering each line separately, the numbers would be much bigger.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #1302
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Not sure how it works in Beijing, but in Tokyo you register your ticket when entering the station and the same when leaving, so while it's not technically registered at the specific line, the computers figures it out based on your in and out movement.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #1303
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It is indeed true that daily ridership in Moscow is just 6.75 million - I could have sworn it was 9 million average daily some time ago. While the system has grown, ridership has decreased, but maybe this can also be attributed to the high car ownership rates in the Russian capital and the expanding expressway and BRT network.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #1304
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Are there any plans to convert line line 10 to 8-cars train?
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Old June 8th, 2013, 11:33 AM   #1305
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Are there any data as to what are the actual loads of Yamanote line passing between each station? And same about Beijing Metro line 10.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #1306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Are there any data as to what are the actual loads of Yamanote line passing between each station? And same about Beijing Metro line 10.
There is, but I can't read Japanese. Quashlo posts JR East data in the Japanese Urban Transport thread on a regular basis and so can probably furnish you with peak loadings on the system. There are a few comparative differences between the Yamanote and the lines on the Beijing Subway, though. Firstly, the Yamanote runs at peak frequencies of 2.5 minutes headway. Next the Yamanote line runs 11 car trains with each car being 20m long and almost 3m wide. These measures alone will really reduce crowding on the line by having a massive extra capacity. Finally, when it comes to passenger numbers, the Yamanote line only has downtime of a few hours with service starting at 4:26 until 1:18. These extra hours give a much larger window of service compared to the Beijing Subway at present operating hours - it's amazing how many people you can move with a few extra hours.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #1307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northridge View Post
Not sure how it works in Beijing, but in Tokyo you register your ticket when entering the station and the same when leaving, so while it's not technically registered at the specific line, the computers figures it out based on your in and out movement.
Anyway, Yamanote is technically a different line from all the other rail lines and so they count each passenger on it separately from all the others. If they didn't, we wouldn't get such insane figures.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #1308
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The reason you get those figures is b/c what I mentioned. The numbers might not be 100,00% accurate, but they are close enough to use them for statistics.
I would like to point out that there is cross platform interchange on the line.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 04:43 AM   #1309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
It is indeed true that daily ridership in Moscow is just 6.75 million - I could have sworn it was 9 million average daily some time ago. While the system has grown, ridership has decreased, but maybe this can also be attributed to the high car ownership rates in the Russian capital and the expanding expressway and BRT network.
I heard of some people saying the Moscow Metro having 9 million/day daily ridership but after digging around it seems they where accidentally
referring to the peak ridership. I would not say I'm an expert in the Moscow metro but I have been following its development and I don't see the system suddenly shedding 3-2 million daily riders in the past few years. Especially with it's rather aggressive expansion plan I'd expect ridership to grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_dragon View Post
Are there any plans to convert line line 10 to 8-cars train?
Nope but in the next 4 years parallel lines will open on all 4 sides of Line 10. Line 14 will parallel the south and east sections, line 15 will parallel the north section and line 16 will cover the west portion. Lucky for us (them) line 14 and 16 will use A size trains which are high capacity.

Quote:
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The reason you get those figures is b/c what I mentioned. The numbers might not be 100,00% accurate, but they are close enough to use them for statistics.
I would like to point out that there is cross platform interchange on the line.
Yes between the Keihin-Tōhoku Line on the entire east side of the loop which really complicates things.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 10:14 AM   #1310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northridge View Post
The reason you get those figures is b/c what I mentioned. The numbers might not be 100,00% accurate, but they are close enough to use them for statistics.
I would like to point out that there is cross platform interchange on the line.
I have watched loads of movies on YouTube about Yamanote line. For the most of cases it is hard to see so many passengers that would justify such figures... So, I really can't believe it is that overloaded with passengers.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I have watched loads of movies on YouTube about Yamanote line. For the most of cases it is hard to see so many passengers that would justify such figures... So, I really can't believe it is that overloaded with passengers.
I might not be correct on this but is there 4-6 tracks on the line?
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Old June 9th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #1312
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I might not be correct on this but is there 4-6 tracks on the line?
The actual line the trains use is 2 but the corridor has lots of other parallel lines that use different tracks.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #1313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I have watched loads of movies on YouTube about Yamanote line. For the most of cases it is hard to see so many passengers that would justify such figures... So, I really can't believe it is that overloaded with passengers.
Youtube videos do not always give a correct impression necessarily - take a look at the one I have posted below. Remember, these trains are 220m long compared to the much shorter metro trains (generally) used elsewhere - for example it is almost 100m longer than the 9 car trains used by the Stockholm metro. Not only that, but ridership on the Yamanote line can be divided far more between different areas than other metro systems where the patronage is confined on narrow corridors - the Yamanote line connects a lot of different key business areas along its entire length and so ridership is high along nearly all of it, so yes, I do believe those numbers. I do generally trust the JR statistics for another reason - they are a private company that focuses on getting the highest quality ridership as well as maximising returns and so are paranoid about making sure they can get as many people moving along their lines in the interest of maximising their profits. This is very, very unlike other transport agencies worldwide (bar a few like the HK MTR).




Anyway, sorry for the off-topic.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #1314
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You won't get fully accurate numbers for ridership on the Yamanote because passengers are only counted when they enter or leave the system at the fare gate.

If someone enters, say, in Asagaya on the Chuo Line and leaves in Musashi-Kosugi on the Yokosuka Line, then it's possible that he took the Yamanote between Shinjuku and Osaki, but JR won't be able to track it directly.

That said, the east side of the Yamanote runs parallel to the Keihin-Tohoku Line (and soon the Tokaido Line), the west side runs parallel to the Saikyo Line and Shonan Shinjuku Line. Only the northern part between Ikebukuro and Tabata is exclusively Yamanote.

If you count all passengers on the loop, regardless of whether they board a train labeled "Yamanote" or not, then yes, 3 million per day sounds about right. The Chuo Line that runs into Tokyo from the west has similar capacity and passenger numbers.

The 23 central wards of Tokyo have 8 million inhabitants, and there are at least 2 million outside commuters daily. If 15% of them take the Yamanote loop on some part of their daily commute, you'll have that figure. Note that a much higher percentage of Tokyoites commute by train than in most other cities. It's usually too far to walk, there are hardly any bike paths anywhere, and the train is usually twice as fast as a car stuck in traffic. There are buses but they usually ferry you to the next train station.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #1315
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I can accept this explanation but still this figures sounds insane in comparison to what we have here in Moscow. Sure, we don't count by lines, we just can count passengers entering the metro as a system but we can't track them within. Still, we've got 155m long trains that run from 5:30 to 1:03 in the morning, during rush hour headways on most of the lines are 1 min 30 - 1 min 35, cars are 2.70 m wide, and the commercial speed is smth about 43 km/h (top speed is over 80). What I see every morning and in the evening taking account that we have quite a developed metro system with 12 lines and over 185 stations, so the fact that Yamanote line carries just a half of what the whole Moscow metro does makes me sick. It is too hard to believe it.

I've been to Shanghai many times, I've been to Beijing once, they can't in my opinion be compared to Moscow Metro in terms of capacities as their trains run rarely...

In this context Yamanote looks incredible.

I can only suggest that between both rush hours passengers in Tokyo are still too numerous.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #1316
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Yamanote line also carries half of the total for NYC Subway. The numbers aren't wrong, but they are very high and almost unbelievable when compared to other busy lines.
Remember all the important connection points it serves; Shibuya, Shinjuku, Ikebukoro, Ueno, Akihabara, Tokyo, Shinbashi, Shinagawa. Many of these are in the top 10 for busiest stations in the world.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #1317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I can accept this explanation but still this figures sounds insane in comparison to what we have here in Moscow. Sure, we don't count by lines, we just can count passengers entering the metro as a system but we can't track them within. Still, we've got 155m long trains that run from 5:30 to 1:03 in the morning, during rush hour headways on most of the lines are 1 min 30 - 1 min 35, cars are 2.70 m wide, and the commercial speed is smth about 43 km/h (top speed is over 80). What I see every morning and in the evening taking account that we have quite a developed metro system with 12 lines and over 185 stations, so the fact that Yamanote line carries just a half of what the whole Moscow metro does makes me sick. It is too hard to believe it.
It is what it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I've been to Shanghai many times, I've been to Beijing once, they can't in my opinion be compared to Moscow Metro in terms of capacities as their trains run rarely...
Yet Beijing has a higher daily ridership than Moscow as of 2013.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #1318
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Here are FY2011 daily entries (entries only, not exits) at the nine stations on the Yamanote Line where the Yamanote Line is the only JR East line serving the station (in other words, you can be absolutely 100% certain that everyone counted below is taking the Yamanote Line):

Code:
Ōtsuka         51,861
Sugamo         76,093
Komagome       46,005
Gotanda       127,996
Meguro        101,988
Harajuku       69,750
Shin-Ōkubo     42,433
Takadanobaba  199,741
Mejiro         37,355
=====================
TOTAL         753,222
So, already three-quarters of a million with basically the least significant stations on the line... Assuming these are commute trips where the morning and evening routes are the same, then its basically 1.5 million passengers daily for these stations alone.

But if you take the line regularly, you will easily notice the passenger flows are much larger at most of the remaining 20 stations. The daily ridership being quoted for the Yamanote Line isn't and will never be 100% accurate because there is no way to know exactly how passengers select their routes for OD pairs where at least one of the origin or destination is served by more than one JR East line, a problem that exists for pretty much any large system in the world. But it really shouldn't be too hard to believe a ridership in the several millions.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 09:50 PM   #1319
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Yeah, I've heard about it and I can understand. In Beijing as well as in Shanghai I can see crowded trains even between the morning and the evening rush hour, probably this fact explains such huge figures. While in Moscow you can even have a seat, let's say at 12:00 at the third station from the terminus.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 11:21 AM   #1320
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Beijing Metro Line 1 is 57,1 km long. With 45 stops, it takes 104 minutes.

A bit long, still.

Shanghai Metro Line 22 is 56,4 km long, and with all stops takes just 60 minutes. For comparison, Yamanote Line full loop (34,8 km) takes 59...65 minutes, and Beijing Line 2 (23,1 km) something like 44 minutes.

Does Beijing need a high speed metro loop line, too?
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