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Old July 27th, 2013, 09:07 AM   #1421
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Looks like a kilometer long queueing ling
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #1422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Here's a chart showing the extreme design to cope with the rush hour passenger flow of Line 13 / line 2 interchanging.

I saw those handrails early this month in Beijing (in non rush hour) and was wondering why they are put there.
That is absolutely crazy. Is there no way of having relief lines in the form of surface transport (BRT or something) to stop the need for so many people to travel in the same direction?

Even Tokyo with its massively used rail system (and even lower car use than Beijing) doesn't have systems like that to deal with passenger flows so I can't help but feel there must be an alternative to massive queues underground and all the problems that this can entail in terms of safety.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #1423
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I could be wrong but I thought Beijing has a more concentrated rush hour period, a lot of the employers are government entities or large state owned corporations, who tend to have very similar schedule, so when it's five o'clock half the city hit the road.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #1424
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I could be wrong but I thought Beijing has a more concentrated rush hour period, a lot of the employers are government entities or large state owned corporations, who tend to have very similar schedule, so when it's five o'clock half the city hit the road.
Perhaps reorganisation of working hours is the answer, then. The Swedish work day, for example, starts between 8 and 10 with nearly all shops (bar supermarkets) being closed until 10. It makes more sense to do that than to try to engineer a solution like this which could turn into a real blood bath if a fire or other disaster hits.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 03:17 AM   #1425
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Beijing should adopt multi-step pricing model, I.e. to give free pass during 5 - 7 am like some countries to split the peak flow.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 07:23 AM   #1426
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Beijing should adopt multi-step pricing model, I.e. to give free pass during 5 - 7 am like some countries to split the peak flow.
Great idea! It's basic economics: when demand exceeds supply, raise the price to reduce the shortage.

Beijing's subway could charge a higher price during rush hour and a lower price during off-peak hours to encourage more balanced flows.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:04 AM   #1427
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Beijing should adopt multi-step pricing model, I.e. to give free pass during 5 - 7 am like some countries to split the peak flow.
That won't work unless the working day is changed too. If people still have to get to work by a certain time, they will still have to travel at a certain time. All you end up doing, and I speak from experience in London here, is punish those who have no option but to travel during those hours. These tend to be the poorest workers too given they tend to be the ones with the least job flexibility.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #1428
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Where are the shops in Beijing distributed?
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Old July 30th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #1429
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Beijing Subway is poorly planned BTW. There are quite a few unnecessary transfers and the choice of medium capacity trains is a disaster.
And worse some station platforms are up to 6-car trains only like some portions of line 1. It could have been standardize to have a 8 to 10 car platform particularly for underground platforms even if the rolling stock is just 6 cars. In this way it would less costly and easier to adopt to longer trains in the future. It is easier to increase train length than station length particularly underground.

For example, I wonder how many years it would just take line 10 to get a daily ridership of 3 to 5 million. considering it has the greatest number of transfers in the system.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
That won't work unless the working day is changed too. If people still have to get to work by a certain time, they will still have to travel at a certain time. All you end up doing, and I speak from experience in London here, is punish those who have no option but to travel during those hours. These tend to be the poorest workers too given they tend to be the ones with the least job flexibility.
It works better for people/company with flexible working hours. Singapore metro started this practice (free/discount tickets before 7:45am) since 6/24. Let's see how it works.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 06:52 PM   #1431
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Originally Posted by silent_dragon View Post
And worse some station platforms are up to 6-car trains only like some portions of line 1. It could have been standardize to have a 8 to 10 car platform particularly for underground platforms even if the rolling stock is just 6 cars. In this way it would less costly and easier to adopt to longer trains in the future. It is easier to increase train length than station length particularly underground.

For example, I wonder how many years it would just take line 10 to get a daily ridership of 3 to 5 million. considering it has the greatest number of transfers in the system.
Might not happen as lines 7, 14, 15 and 16 will gradually reduce load on Line 10 in the near-future. Especially 14 and 16 which use A size stock in 6 and 8 car formations respectively. Another thing is line 9 could be a relief line for part of line 10 but Qilizhung and Military Museum is not completely open, forcing people that want to interchange between lines 1, 6 and 14 to use line 10.

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It works better for people/company with flexible working hours. Singapore metro started this practice (free/discount tickets before 7:45am) since 6/24. Let's see how it works.
They should implement something like flextime in China and make the school rush a different time. Especially university students as they can start class at like 10, 12 or whatever.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 03:42 PM   #1432
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Are there any plans to upgrade lines 1/Batong into one line at the same time convert to high capacity trains? I think it is pretty reasonable to make these lines into 1 line and maybe experiment with 10 car A trains. The line is pretty straight. So longer trains maybe more suitable.

And maybe line 2 too at least 8-car A trains.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 04:22 PM   #1433
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Beijing uses B size trains so A trains will be scraping the sides of the tunnel. especially on the older lines 1 and 2 where the spaces around the trains are smaller. I'm thinking when they build R1 they can also extend the platforms of line 1 and batong to Tokyo style 10 car B trains.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 04:35 PM   #1434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Beijing uses B size trains so A trains will be scraping the sides of the tunnel. especially on the older lines 1 and 2 where the spaces around the trains are smaller. I'm thinking when they build R1 they can also extend the platforms of line 1 and batong to Tokyo style 10 car B trains.
Well I guess this needs first the western section of line 6 to be completed and/or including completion of line 3 to cope the traffic when line 1 is close for upgrading. That is many more years ahead before any real line 1 improvement. Most probably 2020.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 04:52 AM   #1435
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Make fares flexible: experts
18 July 2013
China Daily

Govt claims no hikes are in sight as pressure grows over transit subsidies

With Beijing's transport authority denying it has plans to raise fares, experts are suggesting a solution based around flexible ticket prices on buses and subways.

As financial pressure increases over subsidies for public transportation, the government should come up with a new range of fares based on the length of journey, time of day and type of carriage, said Zhang Zhuting, a professor specializing in traffic law at the Ministry of Transport's Management College.

"The healthy development of the subway system should neither rely heavily on high subsidies over the long term nor impose financial burden on commuters," he said.

On Tuesday, the Beijing Transport Commission denied media reports that it will increase subway fares in the near future and said the city will maintain its low-fare policy on subways and light rails to further encourage the use of public transportation.

Beijing has the cheapest public transportation system in the country after it reduced its subway fare from 3 yuan ($0.49) to 2 yuan regardless of mileage and slashed bus fares to 0.4 yuan in 2007 to encourage people to use public transportation and ease traffic congestion.

The media reports on the possible fare rise came after the commission was found to have conducted an audit of the transport industry last month, aimed at studying the cost of running subways and buses. Some media reports described it as preparation for a possible fare rise.

The commission told China Daily on Wednesday that no subway fare hike is being considered in the near future. It said it will further work toward boosting public transportation and relieving traffic pressure.

Despite the government's denial, many commuters suspect a subway fare increase is likely.

Xu Jun, a software engineer in Beijing who takes the subway to work, said a price hike would discourage the use of public transportation.

"The city has had an increase in taxi fares and it will be too much if the subway costs more as well," he said.

Growing allocation

However, some experts say that leaving fares unchanged will put a greater financial burden on the municipal government, which allocates billions of yuan each year to subsidize public transportation.

In 2011, the city earmarked 15.69 billion yuan for buses and subways. The figure rose to 17 billion yuan in 2012, according to the Beijing Finance Bureau.

With the extension of the subway system to new parts of the city, along with an increase in passenger volume and rising fuel costs, the subsidy for public transportation will continue to rise.

The operating distance of the urban rail transit in Beijing was 142 kilometers in 2007 and it rose to 372 km in 2011. After reaching 456 km this year, the figure is expected to exceed 700 km by the end of 2015.

Zhang at the Management College said the government subsidy comes from taxpayers, and the subway and bus allowance has excessively devoured public spending, which also has to pay for medical, educational, housing and social security sectors.

In addition, ticket prices that are set too low would result in inefficient transportation, with people who do not have to take public transport joining the crowd during rush hour and increasing pressure on the system, he said.

Lu Jiehua, a professor at Peking University, said the financial subsidy will prove too much of a burden in the long term, as the increase in fiscal revenue is not keeping pace with the rise in public transportation subsidies.

However, the government should not shift the burden totally to commuters, he said.

Adjustable prices

Zhang suggests a flexible subway fare, based on mileage, timing and different carriages.

"Charging higher fares for those traveling during peak hours could greatly reduce unnecessary journeys and benefit those who have to rush to work or run urgent errands," he said.

In addition, setting up special carriages with higher fares would also reduce crowding in certain carriages and attract more people who would normally drive private vehicles on the road, thus easing the pressure above ground, he said.

"The subway fare should take into account both the fiscal capacity as well as the financial burden on residents," said Xu Kangming, an international consultant on urban transportation.

His view is echoed by Yu Lingyun, a traffic law professor at Tsinghua University, who added that the government should disclose more information on the cost and revenue of bus and subway systems in recent years, while informing the public of current problems.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 05:03 AM   #1436
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In developing countries like China demand is very cost sensitive for most commodities. So I think the fare solution should work in Beijing.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 08:50 AM   #1437
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In developing countries like China demand is very cost sensitive for most commodities. So I think the fare solution should work in Beijing.
Is the fare still a flat 2 yuan?
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Old August 1st, 2013, 08:56 AM   #1438
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Is the fare still a flat 2 yuan?
It is as of now (since 2008). But I don't think it will last long.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 12:16 AM   #1439
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Make fares flexible: experts

With Beijing's transport authority denying it has plans to raise fares, experts are suggesting a solution based around flexible ticket prices on buses and subways.

As financial pressure increases over subsidies for public transportation, the government should come up with a new range of fares based on the length of journey, time of day and type of carriage, said Zhang Zhuting, a professor specializing in traffic law at the Ministry of Transport's Management College.

"The healthy development of the subway system should neither rely heavily on high subsidies over the long term nor impose financial burden on commuters," he said.
I certainly am no transport expert, but that mirrors my own proposals earlier in this thread.

Like the article mentioned, transport prices have actually fallen in nominal terms, not to speak of in real terms. In principle cheap public transport can be good, but not when it leads to overcrowding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Daily
Despite the government's denial, many commuters suspect a subway fare increase is likely.

Xu Jun, a software engineer in Beijing who takes the subway to work, said a price hike would discourage the use of public transportation.

"The city has had an increase in taxi fares and it will be too much if the subway costs more as well," he said.
I believe mr. Xu to be wrong in this regard. There is a huge price differential between different modes of transportation.

A bus ride usually costs 1 RMB, but with a Yikatong card it is only 0.4 RMB.
A metro ride costs 2 RMB with or without Yikatong.
A taxi ride starts at 12 RMB (it may have increased slightly lately), which is sufficient for rides in the neighbourhood. 30 RMB would be sufficient for most rides, but a ride across town would be well over 100 RMB.
Holding a private car would be significantly more expensive than that, but each ride would be cheaper than a taxi, assuming not too dear parking fees.

In other words a metro ride is 5 times as expensive as a bus ride, a taxi ride would be 6-15 times a metro ride (if taken alone), a car would be no less expensive than that. Or put another way, a car ride would cost approximately 50 times a bus or 10 times metro. Clearly people don't take/buy cars or taxi to save money, however many do take buses because it is cheaper than metro. So why do people buy a car? Because they can afford to, and because public transport is massively crowded.


However this market is as mentioned price sensitive. Increase prices on metro and more people will walk or take the bus, this will lead to less crowding, which would make metros more attractive to car drivers. Prices of 8-10 RMB would allow commuters to have a seat much of the time, for a much lower price than owning a car.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 07:26 AM   #1440
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However this market is as mentioned price sensitive. Increase prices on metro and more people will walk or take the bus, this will lead to less crowding, which would make metros more attractive to car drivers. Prices of 8-10 RMB would allow commuters to have a seat much of the time, for a much lower price than owning a car.
Yes, in China, people drive their car because they want to get away from the crowds of mass transit. So you are going to need to raise the price massively to get the space to make them switch. Many lines are over 100% capacity; With lines Changping, 1, and 2 are at 130%-135% capacity. Even 80%-100% capacity is uncomfortable for typical "on the fence" users.

To actually coax out car users on the basis of a "less crowded" metro will have to run below 80% capacity. You say by raising the price that people will switch walking and bus. But you have to remember the bus is also overcrowded and Beijing's social and urban layout makes work less likely to be within walking distance. Also people know the metro is crowded for years so those who can walk to work will already walk to work. I can see the "priced out" people switching to bikes but they will not be happy. Beijing, unlike coastal cities beijing is a ******* furnace in the summer with flash and dust storms and a freezer in the winter with blizzards so commuting to work will not be fun.

A better solution is to build more lines and more importantly expand the capacity of existing lines. The issue should not be too much people are using the subway, the issue should be why can't the subway to handle this much people. I would like to see a modest fare hike, as the funding model is unsustainable, but the real the real problem is the low capacity of these lines. Why does most lines of the Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Seoul subways comfortably move more than 60,000p/h/d when most Beijing subway lines if operated at their best frequencies and ideal loading struggle to move over 40,000p/h/d? The big picture is that there is just not enough resources in beijing to transport this much people. Can't rise metro prices because there's too much people on the road, can't toll ring roads and add a gas tax because the metro is too crowded. So the real solution is to rearrange the city to encourage shorter commute distances and expand capacity for transport. For the last option I'm pretty sure you know which of the modes you'd rather see expanded.
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