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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:24 PM   #1561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Well, yes and no. The definition of a metro system is highly arbitrary and a lot of systems fall into a grey area. Examples like the Berlin and Hamburg S-bahn systems are quite good. They possess nearly all the hallmarks of a metro system but are not counted as metro systems. Yet, Stockholm and Munich metro systems have extensive line branching (so two lines sharing the same track) more in line with commuter rail, but they are metro systems. Cleveland RTA (red line) is a metro system despite its service frequency (every 15 minutes). The Chicago El has level crossings etc etc etc. The list could go on ad infinitum. This is why I say it's a bit of a strange argument.
Well, the discussion is about those systems which are already classified as a metro system. For preparation of such a list, the first step is to identify metro systems and the second step is to find out the ridership of those metro systems. Earlier, we were discussing the second step, that's why I mentioned that once you have classified a system as a "metro system" in the first step, there is no need to go back and add other rail systems in that. You are right about the ambiguity associated with the first step but once we have taken a call to classify something as a metro system, it would be better to continue comparing apples with apples.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 10:35 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
It's a logical and coherent argument it illustrates how complex and contradictory reality is and how it defies our ability to define or even comprehend it at times. There is no such thing as a definition that is so absolute that it can be applied to all things, all the time , everywhere. In effect there can be no clear definition of metro systems that can satisfy everybody.


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Old January 22nd, 2014, 08:40 PM   #1563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
It's a logical and coherent argument it illustrates how complex and contradictory reality is and how it defies our ability to define or even comprehend it at times. There is no such thing as a definition that is so absolute that it can be applied to all things, all the time , everywhere. In effect there can be no clear definition of metro systems that can satisfy everybody.
But there are limits when it comes to rapid transit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit
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Old February 6th, 2014, 07:01 AM   #1564
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Line 7 underground Depot



Line 7 will use 6B trains extendable to 8B trains. However transport forecasts predict that line usage will be very high from opening day, so the Beijing Subway is working on upgrading the trains to 8B sets ASAP. Its crazy how conservative their ridership forecasting is. Lucky for this line someone is thinking about the future.

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Old February 8th, 2014, 07:17 PM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Well, yes and no. The definition of a metro system is highly arbitrary and a lot of systems fall into a grey area. Examples like the Berlin and Hamburg S-bahn systems are quite good. They possess nearly all the hallmarks of a metro system but are not counted as metro systems. Yet, Stockholm and Munich metro systems have extensive line branching (so two lines sharing the same track) more in line with commuter rail, but they are metro systems. Cleveland RTA (red line) is a metro system despite its service frequency (every 15 minutes). The Chicago El has level crossings etc etc etc. The list could go on ad infinitum. This is why I say it's a bit of a strange argument.
Grade separation. That simple. If a "metro" line has no grade separation it is either a tram line or commuter rail.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #1566
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Grade separation. That simple. If a "metro" line has no grade separation it is either a tram line or commuter rail.
No it isn't. Then the Chicago L is not a metro as it has at-grade portions (hence me saying in that original post that there are level crossings on the Chicago L). If it were so simple there would not be so many grey areas.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 01:30 AM   #1567
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The moment there are at-grade crossings, it's not full metro.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 01:37 AM   #1568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
The moment there are at-grade crossings, it's not full metro.
But not once have I seen people discount the Chicago L as being a metro. Yet here we go:





All "authorities" on classifying urban rail systems refer to the El (or L or whatever) as a heavy rail rapid transit system in the same vein as any other metro system around the world. Anyway, sorry for this extensive off-topic. The original point was meant to be that different definitions and criteria exclude or include various systems around the world, inflating or diminishing rapid transport network totals in different cities.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 01:58 AM   #1569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
No it isn't. Then the Chicago L is not a metro as it has at-grade portions (hence me saying in that original post that there are level crossings on the Chicago L). If it were so simple there would not be so many grey areas.
Well, I don't see any gray areas. Frankly it is quite easy to distinguish commuter rails from metro lines or trams.

We can discuss specific examples like "L" if we like to. I do not know anything about L. So, do you mind telling me what part of the line that road crossing is happening? I assume it is very outskirts of city where it can be acceptable because it will be an exception in the network and if it is not, if is is often at grade then for me it is a tram and if it is connecting Chicago metro area to close towns then it is a commuter line.

For Seoul metro, the line between Incheon and Seoul is a commuter line. Incheon is a city which is very connected to Seoul. Maybe in 20 years it will be completely fused with Seoul and believe me at that time there will be real metro lines with grade separation between two centers.

I think you somehow find commuter rail classification an insult? I think they are nice piece of infrastructure and a great solution for suburbs but they are not metros. Do you think commuter rail classification is a non-sense?

Last edited by foxmulder; February 9th, 2014 at 02:06 AM.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 03:08 AM   #1570
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It's not about it being an insult, it's more about the whole point of segregating systems due to a set of criteria is rather bizarre and these days, due to the variety of systems around the world, is also rather redundant. Also, why does connecting two different cities based on (again) arbitrary boundaries that vary considerably between countries exclude something from being a metro?

To address my specific example of Chicago, it is indeed part of Chicago and yes, in the suburbs, but your definition was that if it was not grade separated, it is not a metro. However, like I said, those that decide the definition of a "metro" all seem to count the Chicago El as a heavy rail, rapid transit system (in other words, a "metro"). It cannot be a tram as the rolling stock is completely wrong for a tram - despite it largely being at-grade. Same with the Cleveland system that I highlighted in my initial posts too (with 15 minute frequencies)...

As for "commuter rail" the name itself lends itself to ambiguity in English. The word commuter implies that it is primarily serving the purpose of relieving road traffic by moving commuters by rail. Many systems in the US that serve larger cities do indeed follow this pattern with little utilisation outside of commuting hours (see the Metra system in Chicago, the CalTrain system in the Bay Area et al), however, this definition does not hold for many of these "metro-like" systems like the Berlin or Hamburg S-bahn systems that really do have all the hallmarks of metro systems (but are not counted thusly), nor many of the lines in Seoul or Tokyo. Many lines in Tokyo are of particular note (such as the Yamanote line, or Chuo Rapid out to east Tokyo to name but two) given they possess frequencies beyond many metro sytems around the world, are grade-separated, are mostly elevated and carry significant off-peak patronage and cater for and multi-directional travel patterns (IE not CBD-centric), plus all of those lines that interline with the subway system. The very fact you say that "commuter rail is a great solution for the suburbs" shows the obvious bias - when in reality, the lines in the two systems I mention above that don't normally get called "metro" lines have more functionality than many metro systems around the world that I have been on.

These anomalies are exactly what I have been pointing out to the purists that believe that only if something is called a metro it is a metro - however, the assigning of the metro tag seems to be wholly arbitrary. But I can see this is a fruitless argument as you'll always have a camp on either side arguing that their definition is more correct.
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Old February 9th, 2014, 05:22 AM   #1571
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I know that the definition of a metro system has some exceptions and get pretty grey at times. However, this debate can go on forever with no good final outcome, so can we please get back to talking about the Beijing Subway.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 05:43 AM   #1572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Any news on Qilizhuang Station?
Feb 15 Interchange station Qilizhuang opens

Qilizhuang station is the interchange station of Line 9 and Line 14.















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Old February 18th, 2014, 09:08 AM   #1573
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Very nice and huge infrastructure.
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 08:49 PM   #1574
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Commuters feel the strain of taking Beijing subway

Good Video
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Old February 24th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #1575
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Beijing Monorail construction to begin this year…

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/News.html
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Old February 24th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #1576
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Beijing Monorail construction to begin this year…

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/News.html
This is the thing I love about how China handles transport infrastructure. Things just happen and get done. I didn't even know there was a monorail proposal and here it is ready to go.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 12:08 AM   #1577
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Update:
Here is what the West Monorail will look like




Source

There are also talks for a monorail in the east side of Beijing along the 4th ring road.
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Last edited by saiho; February 25th, 2014 at 07:37 AM. Reason: relink image
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Old February 25th, 2014, 02:57 AM   #1578
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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
This is the thing I love about how China handles transport infrastructure. Things just happen and get done. I didn't even know there was a monorail proposal and here it is ready to go.
And there's a 10km tram line starting construction this month or so in Beijing which people rarely notice it happening.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #1579
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On the monorail map I see two planned metro* lines that are unknown to me. One is line 11, which appears to run between the Beijing West Railway station (And further East to Changchunjie on line 2?) and the Western suburbs, and the other is the Northern extension of the Fangshan line, which appears to cross line 10 at Shoujingmao and may reach Changchujie too. Any maps of these?

* Yes, I know Beijing calls its metro system "subway".
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Old March 1st, 2014, 10:53 PM   #1580
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East 4th ring road monorail line.

36km long, 21 stations. Transfer available to Lines 1, 3, 7, 12, and 14 but not 6.

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