EU Parliament Says Turkey Must Recognise Genocide (archive)

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Lombak

Than shut the hell up!!!

Are you completely stupid? Why would we shut up? We Europeans are not denying our historical crimes but you Turks are. If we criticise you for covering up your crimes then that's perfectly fair and rational - so no I will not shut up. The Turks committed genocide against the Armenians and the Turks are now actively covering it up and denying that it happened. Turkey's behaviour is shameful and disgusting. No EU member behaves like that.

[Allan]

edit

[eklips]

Originally Posted by Monkey

In British Africa the colonies were actually far wealthier relative to the rest of the world at the point of independence than they are now. Blaming colonialism for Third World ills is something of a scapegoat and excuse. Look at Thailand for example - a country that was never colonised. Thailand is wealthier than neighbouring Burma (formerly British) and IndoChinese countries (formerly French) but then it's poorer than Malaysia and Singapore (formerly British). There is no clear cut case either for or against colonialism. Indeed the poorer countries are poorer more because of communism and warfare (Indochina) and a military dictatorship (Burma) than because of the British and French colonial legacy.

And I did a Google search for French atrocities in Madagascar and the worst I could find was 45,000 in sepression of a rebellion. That is shameful but it's of a much smaller magnitude than the Armenian Genocide and was not a deliberate attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic or national group. It therefore struggles under the label "genocide".

This thread is not about the third world's ills or whatever, so stick to the subject please, if you want to talk about it, create a new subject or PM me, I'll be glad to respond.

Concerning the french atrocities, I don't know what you site you fell upon, but many many historians have stated that around 100 000 were killed, wasn't it mentioned in the link I gave you? Sorry if it didn't.

And concerning the armenian genocide, I am not excusing Turkey here, I think they should recognise it, just like the germans recognised the hollocaust.

I was only pointing out those slaughters to show that France never fully accepted its past, understand? I was absolutly not making comparisons with Turkey

[Camaway]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Are you completely stupid? Why would we shut up? We Europeans are not denying our historical crimes but you Turks are. If we criticise you for covering up your crimes then that's perfectly fair and rational - so no I will not shut up. The Turks committed genocide against the Armenians and the Turks are now actively covering it up and denying that it happened. Turkey's behaviour is shameful and disgusting. No EU member behaves like that.

Monkey, at the cost of sounding redundant I am going to repeat myself:

If the EU had a problem with the Armenian massacre (and personally I think it should have a problem) this should have made clear years ago.
The last move from the EU parliament is just a pathetic attempt to add even more hurdles so that the Turks lose their patience and eventually leave so that the EU can say: "see, they weren't ready" and avoid to deal with the outcome of a successful turkish bid (i.e. granting full membership).

The fact that China has invaded a legitimate country, massacred and buried alive tens of thousands of Tibetans, crushed with tanks young students that were calling for democratic reforms never seemed to be an issue for our governments as we happily sign contracts, agree on parterships and sign joint declarations with the chinese communist rulers.

I am still waiting to read a declaration from the EU parliament that tell the Russians: "until you recognise what you did in Chechnya we shall not buy gas from you".

We all know this, let's not pretend it is all about the poor Armenians.

[Lombak]

Originally Posted by Monkey

We Europeans are not denying our historical crimes but you Turks are. . No EU member behaves like that.

Are you sure ? You Europeans are not denying,you are fall short again monkey.

Read and learn

Reuters 8 May 2005 Algeria calls on France to admit 1945 massacres By Paul de Bendern ALGIERS, May 8 (Reuters) - President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has called on France to admit its part in the massacres of 45,000 Algerians who took to the streets to demand independence as Europe celebrated victory over Nazi Germany on May 8, 1945. Algeria is marking the 60th anniversary of the repression of pro-independence demonstrators under French colonial rule as Europeans celebrate the end of World War Two in Europe. "The paradox of the massacres of May 8, 1945, is that when the heroic Algerian combatants returned from the fronts in Europe, Africa and elsewhere where they defended France's honour and interests ... the French administration fired on peaceful demonstrators," Bouteflika said in a speech published by state media on Sunday. Colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to anti-French riots, which killed more than 100 Europeans. The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead. European historians put the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000. It marks one of the darkest chapters in the history of Algeria and France, which ruled the North African country with an iron fist from 1830 until 1962. France's ambassador to Algeria said in February that the Setif massacre was an "inexcusable tragedy". It was the most explicit comments by the French state on the disputed event. "The Algerian people are still waiting for France ... that the declarations of the ambassador of France are followed by a more convincing gesture," Bouteflika said in the speech given in Setif on Saturday. Several remembrance events are being held across Algeria. The repression sparked the anti-colonial movement and a long war of independence, costing the lives of 1.5 million Algerians, according to the government. Many French also perished. ADMIT PAST ATROCITIES "The Algerian people have always been waiting for France to admit the acts perpetrated during the colonisation period and the liberation war to pave the way for broader and new friendship and cooperation prospects," Bouteflika said. French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said in an interview published on Sunday in Algerian daily El Watan that both countries needed to "look together at the past, in order to overcome the chapter most painful for our two peoples". Algeria and France are gradually normalising ties and are due to sign an important friendship treaty this year, similar to the 1963 Franco-German reconciliation treaty. After seeing its diplomatic and economic influence over Algeria weakened in recent years as the United States developed more oil interests and power in the region, France is trying regain the upper hand. "I don't think it's enough (the French comments) to satisfy the Algerian public ... but it's a step forward as never before has there been such a move from the French," said Benjamin Stora, considered France's leader historian on Algeria. Many Algerian political figures and historians, who call the massacre a genocide, not only want an apology but demand compensation. "Sixty years later, France does not recognise its crimes against humanity," Algerian French-language newspaper La Tribune said on its front page



MONKEY READ IT ONE MORE TIME..
"Sixty years later, France does not recognise its crimes against humanity,"

http://www.preventgenocide.org/news-...r/2005may1.htm

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Camaway

Monkey, at the cost of sounding redundant I am going to repeat myself:

If the EU had a problem with the Armenian massacre (and personally I think it should have a problem) this should have made clear years ago.
The last move from the EU parliament is just a pathetic attempt to add even more hurdles so that the Turks lose their patience and eventually leave so that the EU can say: "see, they weren't ready" and avoid to deal with the outcome of a successful turkish bid (i.e. granting full membership).

The fact that China has invaded a legitimate country, massacred and buried alive tens of thousands of Tibetans, crushed with tanks young students that were calling for democratic reforms never seemed to be an issue for our governments as we happily sign contracts, agree on parterships and sign joint declarations with the chinese communist rulers.

I am still waiting to read a declaration from the EU parliament that tell the Russians: "until you recognise what you did in Chechnya we shall not buy gas from you".

We all know this, let's not pretend it is all about the poor Armenians.

I never saw this post before but essentially I agree with you. There are many in Europe who oppose Turkey's membership and will find any excuse to foil their bid. I would like to add one more time that I am strongly in favour of Turkey joing the EU. However this issue really infuriates me. Turkey is just blatantly lying about its past. They committed a huge crime and are actively covering it up. This is despicable and no other EU member is doing the same. Why do Turks feel the need to cover up their history like that? It suggests an ugly nationalsim lurking under Turkey's bonnet that is not in tune with the democratic and open political culture of the EU.

[Lombak]

OHHH
Forgot the add "France's behaviour is shameful and disgusting. No EU member behaves like that".......oopppss

hahaha,how you like it now monkey boy.

[Lombak]

Originally Posted by Monkey

FRANCE is just blatantly lying about its past. They committed a huge crime and are actively covering it up. This is despicable and no other EU member is doing the same. Why do FRENCH feel the need to cover up their history like that? It suggests an ugly nationalsim lurking under FRANCE's bonnet that is not in tune with the democratic and open political culture of the EU.

Look it still works when you fill the blanks with "FRANCE"

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Lombak

Are you sure ? You Europeans are not denying,you are fall short again monkey.

Read and learn

Reuters 8 May 2005 Algeria calls on France to admit 1945 massacres By Paul de Bendern ALGIERS, May 8 (Reuters) - President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has called on France to admit its part in the massacres of 45,000 Algerians who took to the streets to demand independence as Europe celebrated victory over Nazi Germany on May 8, 1945. Algeria is marking the 60th anniversary of the repression of pro-independence demonstrators under French colonial rule as Europeans celebrate the end of World War Two in Europe. "The paradox of the massacres of May 8, 1945, is that when the heroic Algerian combatants returned from the fronts in Europe, Africa and elsewhere where they defended France's honour and interests ... the French administration fired on peaceful demonstrators," Bouteflika said in a speech published by state media on Sunday. Colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to anti-French riots, which killed more than 100 Europeans. The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead. European historians put the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000. It marks one of the darkest chapters in the history of Algeria and France, which ruled the North African country with an iron fist from 1830 until 1962. France's ambassador to Algeria said in February that the Setif massacre was an "inexcusable tragedy". It was the most explicit comments by the French state on the disputed event. "The Algerian people are still waiting for France ... that the declarations of the ambassador of France are followed by a more convincing gesture," Bouteflika said in the speech given in Setif on Saturday. Several remembrance events are being held across Algeria. The repression sparked the anti-colonial movement and a long war of independence, costing the lives of 1.5 million Algerians, according to the government. Many French also perished. ADMIT PAST ATROCITIES "The Algerian people have always been waiting for France to admit the acts perpetrated during the colonisation period and the liberation war to pave the way for broader and new friendship and cooperation prospects," Bouteflika said. French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said in an interview published on Sunday in Algerian daily El Watan that both countries needed to "look together at the past, in order to overcome the chapter most painful for our two peoples". Algeria and France are gradually normalising ties and are due to sign an important friendship treaty this year, similar to the 1963 Franco-German reconciliation treaty. After seeing its diplomatic and economic influence over Algeria weakened in recent years as the United States developed more oil interests and power in the region, France is trying regain the upper hand. "I don't think it's enough (the French comments) to satisfy the Algerian public ... but it's a step forward as never before has there been such a move from the French," said Benjamin Stora, considered France's leader historian on Algeria. Many Algerian political figures and historians, who call the massacre a genocide, not only want an apology but demand compensation. "Sixty years later, France does not recognise its crimes against humanity," Algerian French-language newspaper La Tribune said on its front page



MONKEY READ IT ONE MORE TIME..
"Sixty years later, France does not recognise its crimes against humanity,"

http://www.preventgenocide.org/news-...r/2005may1.htm

1) This is not genocide. It may be a massacre but it's not an attempt to wipe out an entire people.

2) The French government does not actively deny this and neither does the French media. The French government does not prohibit admission of France's crimes and French teachers are free to cover the atrocities in French schools. I am willing to bet that no French forumer will come on here in a fit of rage (as the Turks have on this thread) and deny France's past atrocities. Indeed forumers like Virtual are doing precisely the opposite and actually emphasising France's past atrocities. And just look at this quote from your article:

"French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said in an interview published on Sunday in Algerian daily El Watan that both countries needed to "look together at the past, in order to overcome the chapter most painful for our two peoples".

Is the Turkish Foreign Minister going to Armenia to normalise relations and write a shared history with them? Like hell he his!!

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Lombak

Look it still works when you fill the blanks with "FRANCE"

No it deosn't. The French are not covering up their history and not prohibiting debate on the subject. They are in a process of recognising that history and confronting it which is what mature democracies do. Denial is the response of immature nationalism.

[John]

This should be one of the main conditions to start negotiations regarding Turkey's EU membership. If this is not done it means Turkey is not mature enough to join such union.

[Giri]

It depends : our nationalist right is powerful and is a strong revisionist lobby.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Lombak

OHHH
Forgot the add "France's behaviour is shameful and disgusting. No EU member behaves like that".......oopppss

hahaha,how you like it now monkey boy.

No France's behaviour is not shameful or disgusting. France is not denying its past. Turkey is.

[Matthieu]

I don't give a shit about what the Turks think of France personnaly.

[Lombak]

Originally Posted by Détritus

I don't give a shit about what the Turks think of France personnaly.

vice versa

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by virtual

This thread is not about the third world's ills or whatever, so stick to the subject please, if you want to talk about it, create a new subject or PM me, I'll be glad to respond.

Concerning the french atrocities, I don't know what you site you fell upon, but many many historians have stated that around 100 000 were killed, wasn't it mentioned in the link I gave you? Sorry if it didn't.

And concerning the armenian genocide, I am not excusing Turkey here, I think they should recognise it, just like the germans recognised the hollocaust.

I was only pointing out those slaughters to show that France never fully accepted its past, understand? I was absolutly not making comparisons with Turkey

But unfortunately they (the Turks) are making comparisons with France and saying that France is as bad as Turkey and covering up its past in the same way that Turkey is. This is simply not the case. French forumers here (you and Giri) are coming on here and admitting France's crimes, offering links showing how bad they are, and saying that many French do not realise their extent or that France's process of confronting its history is not complete. That may well be the case but whichever way you cut it there is no outright and systematic denial of France's crimes. French people are free to proclaim them and regularly do so. The French government does not try to stifle the debate.

[Matthieu]

Actually, you do care, because the EU membership depends of it.... even though you might be against it.

[SHiRO]

To the people getting all worked up about this...I hate to break it to you but in 10 to 15 years the Turkish government will have recognized the Armenian Genocide as well as Cyprus.
Better get used to it, because this is more likely to happen than not...

[Lombak]

Monkey don't get me wrong but I trust Algerian historians and their Presidents words than yours.....But it's only me...

President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has called on France to admit its part in the massacres of 45,000 Algerians!!!!!

keyword:Admit

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Giri

It depends : our nationalist right is powerful and is a strong revisionist lobby.

But there's also a centre, various shades of left, and a milder right who carry the majority and do accept the crimes of France's colonial past. Turkey's crimes are greater yet the government actively intervenes to deny the past and prosecutes those who mention it.