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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:03 AM   #21
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Ok..so what hole is going to be used? The square, the semicircle, or the circle?
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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malec
How about they keep the politics away from this tower.
Thats communism for you and the stupid reason it was changed over i dont think its had that much of a change in look it did look a little better with the circle but its not that bad.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:48 AM   #23
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guys, look at this
the right is " the great asia holy war stele" , is to memorize and praise the great past asia holy war started by japanese
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Old October 9th, 2005, 08:26 AM   #24
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LOL, you have to be kidding me. Who was the architect of this building? KPF? Is Kohn, Pedersen, Fox & Associates a Japanese company that somehow wants to glorify Japan?
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silly thing
guys, look at this
the right is " the great asia holy war stele" , is to memorize and praise the great past asia holy war started by japanese
Thanks for your pictures. ďA picture won a thousand words"
You see! So, Chinese won't accept the circular hole is right!
The circular hole will hurt the feeling of Chinese people once itís
become reality. Under the reason of politic and history between
Chinese and Japanese; the square hole will be the final design as I thought.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #26
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Source: xitek.com
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:51 AM   #27
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^It looks more like a bottle opener. but still funny nonetheless.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silly thing
guys, look at this
the right is " the great asia holy war stele" , is to memorize and praise the great past asia holy war started by japanese

The association of those 2 particular things might be a lil bit farfetched, but the corrolation of the Japanese "Sun" and the circle on top is nonetheless quite undeniable... Personally I've never quite liked the hole on top, regardless of the shape... :-/
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Old October 9th, 2005, 10:11 AM   #29
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Hmm... There are a lotta negative sentiments from many of you here for the new design... although I agree that the building got much worse without the circle, the move to change was not simple childish politics...

The Anti-Japanese War (and I call it this because historically this was the name for the war for China, both for KMT and the communists, to distinguish from an earlier Sino-Japanese War) was and STILL IS a really sore point for the Chinese... Many of those who suffered the war are still alive, and heartbreaking stories about the war can be heard from almost anyone over 60...

It's really unfair that just because China is a communist country, then you guys automatically accuse the gov't... in fact, the complaint about the design has been tossed around online on Chinese forums for a long long time, especially from Shanghai residents... Even if it WAS the gov't that forced the design change, it would've been to appease the public... Is it really "stupid politics" when you're trying to juggle between 1.3 billion people's feelings of nationalism/negativity with a neighboring powerhouse and a peaceful business relationship with the country that provides the largest foreign-investment in China? I really don't think so...

BTW, I showed my 91-year-old grandmother who was in Shanghai when the Japanese came and escaped to Hong Kong (where I was born), the first thing she said was (in Cantonese): "Why is there a circle on top? Did some god-damn Japanese designed this? What there're no architects in China?"

For those who claim this change "stupid politics" or "that's communism for you"... think about my grandma who saw her family got blown into pieces right in front of her eyes by a Japanese air-raid... You can't blame the Chinese for being reminded of their painful past :-/

my 2 cents
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Old October 9th, 2005, 12:28 PM   #30
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Fine so. It's more than "stupid politics".

But that still doesn't make the tower look any better
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Old October 9th, 2005, 01:19 PM   #31
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Unless the Japanese developer was so sadistic as to bribe KPF to make the building look like a Japanese war monument, how could an American architect group have come up with that intention?

Or was the KPF label just a cover-up for this "secret Japanese imperialist project"? Or the guys at KPF see China as a commie-land that deserves such an "offensive" design?
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Old October 9th, 2005, 04:02 PM   #32
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People call it "stupid politics" because China is taking a bloody long time to show any hint of forgiving. Most of these nationalists were not even alive during the Anti-Japanese War. Are the Japanese still hating the United States for its strategic bombing campaigns that killed millions of civilians? The latter did not apologise much either. One might say "oh, but that's war", but the Japanese make such claims about their atrocities in China too. No one questioned the legitimacy of the grudge on a technical basis; that hatred is still actively encouraged seventy years hence is unacceptable.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 06:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicytimothy
BTW, I showed my 91-year-old grandmother who was in Shanghai when the Japanese came and escaped to Hong Kong (where I was born), the first thing she said was (in Cantonese): "Why is there a circle on top? Did some god-damn Japanese designed this? What there're no architects in China?"
I understand that many still have the horror experiences of past Japanese treatment, and it same goes to other suffered nations as well. We hate their past, and we feared their sign of sun. Thatís our mentality being put into this way because of their wrong doing. But, architecture cannot govern by this kind of mentality. Chinese ancient and today communities still regards circle symbol as emptiness with fullness, visible with invisible and the linear with cyclical manifestations of change and movement. Thatís yin and yang interpretation. I might go wrong here to interpret precisely, but could you ignore that Chinese has long using circle as their powerful symbol in many fields?

In my view, the circle ontop swfc is seen as a moon gate. It signifies of the earth element or gold. It too represents a balance of yin and yang. I ll only lobby for a design change if the tower is designed in a such way thatís depict a flag shape with a circle at the centre. Now, does swfc look like flag?

Frankly speaking, I must stressed that the culprit behind this controversy are from the over jealousy Chinese architects/scholars. Their critics have a slight indirectly of bad intention, to keep the heats going on. Not every Chinese community thinks the same as them. And, they canít speak on behalf of 1.3 billion Chinese to justify their claim. Thatís their own.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jue
People call it "stupid politics" because China is taking a bloody long time to show any hint of forgiving. Most of these nationalists were not even alive during the Anti-Japanese War. Are the Japanese still hating the United States for its strategic bombing campaigns that killed millions of civilians? The latter did not apologise much either. One might say "oh, but that's war", but the Japanese make such claims about their atrocities in China too. No one questioned the legitimacy of the grudge on a technical basis; that hatred is still actively encouraged seventy years hence is unacceptable.
Amen, it really is time that both sides moved on.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:28 PM   #35
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OMG this is a real skyscraper
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Old October 9th, 2005, 07:36 PM   #36
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what did you thought? was it fantasy or a dream?
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jue
People call it "stupid politics" because China is taking a bloody long time to show any hint of forgiving. Most of these nationalists were not even alive during the Anti-Japanese War. Are the Japanese still hating the United States for its strategic bombing campaigns that killed millions of civilians? The latter did not apologise much either. One might say "oh, but that's war", but the Japanese make such claims about their atrocities in China too. No one questioned the legitimacy of the grudge on a technical basis; that hatred is still actively encouraged seventy years hence is unacceptable.
This is very interesting because the exact point my friend brought up when we were discussing this a couple of months back... but what I responded is that, the fundamental difference between the US bombing Japan and the Japanese killing Chinese is that the Japanese started the war. No matter what the US did after the Japanese sneak attacked Pearl Harbor, it's called response. The Chinese did not attack Japan. The Japanese used a silly excuse over a bridge to march into China.

In addition, the US bombings may have killed a lot of civilans, but, at least in terms of intention not collateral damage, they were targetting military operations. They dropped the nucular :-) bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima not becuase it's got a larger population for civilian casualty (because otherwise I would assume Tokyo, Osaka, or Yokohama are better targets), but because those were military centers, with large factories producing armor and bombs. This is very different from Japan conquering Nanjing with ease, then go around and rape literally hundreds of thousands of women... it's also different from what my grandma saw as her best friend getting gang raped then a bamboo stuck in the ******, yet can't help because she was in danger herself and saw the whole thing from a distance... Is there any example comparable to this that you can find from the US/GB/USSR troops to justify the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese not hating the Allies after decades of peace like the Chinese do?

As for moving on, it is truly more difficult for Chinese (and Koreans and others) to do so, simply because the Japanese:
1. Never procure any reparation...: As far as I remember, Germany paid a helluva a lotta money to the Jews as reparation, and even the Americans (during the Reagan years) paid Japanese-Americans reparation for detaining them in camps during WWII for security from espionage. Not only did the Japanese never paid reparation for the millions of dollars and gold they have taken from the Chinese civilians in exchange for war coupons that was never reimbursed after the war, some Diet members from Japan actually claimed that they are repaying China by investing in her. Can anyone not be outraged?

2. still visits the war shrine Yasukuni...: All things aside, visiting the shrine is constitutionally illegal, becuase of the secular gov't clause in the Japanese law. Yet Koizumi had done it 4 times so far during his time in office. Too much has been said on this for my to indulge further here...

To conclude, if you believe that hatred is "actively encouraged" by grannies telling stories of their past, then I feel very sorry for not realizing it...

my 2 dollars
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Old October 9th, 2005, 09:21 PM   #38
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"They dropped the nucular :-) bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima not becuase it's got a larger population for civilian casualty (because otherwise I would assume Tokyo, Osaka, or Yokohama are better targets), but because those were military centers, with large factories producing armor and bombs."

There is plenty of evidence the nuclear bombs where unneccesary, more a way to impress soviet.


Japan was at that time unable to fight much more. The biggest part of their army was in CHina, and soviet told US they could take care of them so the bombs wouldnt be neccessary, US refused. Almost all larger cities in Japan except Kyoto was bombed during the war to the ground. I think US has the record in most civilians killed during one day during the Tokyo bombing.

1 year before the nuclear bombs. Japan had offered to end the war with the condition that the emperor could still be. US refused, the war did go on for one more year and then they "forced" Japan to surrender, and the emperor could remain. US knew soviet had spies in US by the time. The bombs where not very neccesary.

Then Japan was not nice during the war, im not saying that, but both sides did awful things.

Japan has contributed a lot to Korea and China from what ive read.

_________________________________________
Indemnity & grants
(in yen, at the time of payment)
Loans
(in yen, at the time of payment)

Micronesia
1950
18 billion donated


Myanmar
1955, 1963
72 billion indemnity
50.4 billion grant
18 billion
10.8 billion

Philippines
1956
198 billion indemnity
90 billion

Indonesia
1958
80.3 billion indemnity
(+63.7 billion credit write-off)
144 billion

Laos
1958
1 billion grant


Cambodia
1959
1.5 billion grant


Vietnam
1960
14 billion indemnity
6 billion

Korea
1965
108 billion
72 billion

Malaysia
1967
2.9 billion grant


Thailand
15 billion


Taiwan
58 billion


Singapore
1967
2.9 billion grant


Holland
1956
3.6 billion compensation


Switzerland
1955
1.1 billion compensation


Denmark
1955,1959
3 billion compensation
4.23 billion compensation


Sweden
1958
5 billion compensation

_________________

<b>As for China</b>

"It is impossible to know the total value, but the Bank of Japan estimated total overseas assets at 111.1 billion dollars immediately after the war, a majority of them in China. How these assets were later utilized have been up to the discretion of the individual governments."

"So far, China has been the recipient of 2.26 trillion yen worth of government aid (1997)*1 When President Ziang Zemin visited Japan last year, Japan agreed anew to provide 390 billion yen aid."

"In recent years, Japan has been China's no.1 aid donor. The most recent figures available for international comparison (1994-1996) shows that Japan has provided more than one half of aid that China receives from foreign countries."

"For 1996, Japan's official development aid was about 862 million dollars. The second donor, Germany, provided 461 million dollars. The third donor, France, provided 97million dollars. For 1995, Japan's aid was 1.38 billion dollars, and for 1994, 1.48 billion dollars. The sudden drop in the amount of aid for 1996 is attributed to the fact that Japan stopped certain grant cooperation from mid-1995 to mid-1997 in protest of China's nuclear experiments."

___________________________________


"Is there any example comparable to this that you can find from the US/GB/USSR"

A lot.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/015...83155&v=glance

The book hold a lot of this things from a US armyman's journal.

http://www.ety.com/berlin/lindberg.htm - read here

for example:

"Where had I seen starvation like that before? It was on Biak Island, too. ...the Japanese prisoners ...so starved that they could not stand to walk, thinner even than this Pole. Oh, we had not starved them in a prison camp like the Germans. We had been too "civilized," too clever for that. We had let them starve themselves in the jungle (their own fault) by simply not accepting their surrender. ... It was only necessary to shoot a few men advancing to surrender with their hands in the air. ("You can't trust a Jap to surrender. He'll throw a grenade at you. The only way is to kill him right now.") Or one could be more blunt about it and shout to an enemy emissary, as our infantry officers boasted of doing at the west caves, "Get back in there and fight it out, you sons of bitches.""

____________-


Alsoo, just after americans had arrived in war torn Japan, thousands and thousands of rapes was reporterd to police by Japanese woman raped by arrived americans.

Sadly, this kind of asholes existed in both sides. I just hope the world is generally more aware and smart today, so that these things dont happen. They happened in Bosnia to 10 years ago in big numbers.
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Last edited by Alle; October 9th, 2005 at 09:30 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 10:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
There is plenty of evidence the nuclear bombs where unneccesary, more a way to impress soviet.
I'm aware of the many interpretations on the usefulness or the neccesity of the nuclear bombs, since I've taken a semester of History of Science on it... however immune to the fact that the US didn't want USSR to cut up Japan like they had to in Germany, the bomb was directly instumental to crippling the Japanese war machine and, ultimately, to end the war with minimum American casualties, because an offense on the main islands of Japan, particularly Tokyo, would mean major casualties for the US, something Truman wanted to avoid at all cost.

Conversely, look at the casualties in China. How does raping women or killing babies or cutting open pregnant women's tummy help in winning the war? While I can understand the nationalism and the desire to win a war for one's country, regardless of it being Japan or China or any other, what the Japanese did in China was heinous and quite simply, unneccesary.

BTW, the Japanese never offered to surrender unconditionally prior to the nuclear bombs. The key is in that the Japanese interpreted "unconditionally" different from the Allies. They may have been losing already but don't forget the #1 rule for the Japanese military: rather die than surrender.

As for the "grants" you mentioned, I must admit I've never heard of them. What I do recall is the UN recognizing that Japan never repayed anything for WWII. Now whether the Japanese gov't give out grant for some other reason I do not know, but to turn around afterwards and said that it was for war reparations is ridiculous. "Development Aid" is completely different from "War Reparation". Once is to say "I'm sorry here some money hopefully this would make up for what I did" versus "O poor you let me be a philantropher and give you some money, see how nice I really am?"


Quote:
"It is impossible to know the total value, but the Bank of Japan estimated total overseas assets at 111.1 billion dollars immediately after the war, a majority of them in China. How these assets were later utilized have been up to the discretion of the individual governments."
There is no doubt in my mind that such an estimate was biased. It was done by the Bank of Japan haha! HOWEVER, regardless, I also have no doubt that such an estimate includes such things as war coupons (which was worthless as soon as they left except to them) and infrastructures they have built during the war. Do you seriously count a military building constructed by the Japanese in say, Nanjing, an asset for the new gov't, as a form of repayment?


Quote:
for example:

"Where had I seen starvation like that before? It was on Biak Island, too. ...the Japanese prisoners ...so starved that they could not stand to walk, thinner even than this Pole. Oh, we had not starved them in a prison camp like the Germans. We had been too "civilized," too clever for that. We had let them starve themselves in the jungle (their own fault) by simply not accepting their surrender. ... It was only necessary to shoot a few men advancing to surrender with their hands in the air. ("You can't trust a Jap to surrender. He'll throw a grenade at you. The only way is to kill him right now.") Or one could be more blunt about it and shout to an enemy emissary, as our infantry officers boasted of doing at the west caves, "Get back in there and fight it out, you sons of bitches.""
Now this I actually find offensive. You're comparing a military tactic in the midst of war against, iono, a couple thousand troops at most; with the hundreds of thousands (a conservative estimate btw) of CIVILIANS being raped and tortured?


Quote:
Alsoo, just after americans had arrived in war torn Japan, thousands and thousands of rapes was reporterd to police by Japanese woman raped by arrived americans.
I'm very interested in having some proof on this... because it actually has always been my belief that the Americans army isn't as civilized as the US gov't protraits... however it is really quite hard to understand that happening, because when the Americans arrived in Tokyo the war has already ended and they were led by General MacArthur. There was no more urban combat or fighting. IF there are accounts of rape it can't be counted as war atrocities, simply because the American troops didn't run amuck in Tokyo, and the war has ended.


Maybe this conversation should end here... afterall this is a thread of a skyscraper, not a history discussion... however I wouldn't mind if this continues... nonetheless, my original point is that the design change isn't as simplistic or childish as many on this board think, in fact national sentiments, peace between nations, social stability all have to do with it... This world isn't black and white.

Last edited by spicytimothy; October 9th, 2005 at 10:39 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 10:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Foong
Chinese ancient and today communities still regards circle symbol as emptiness with fullness, visible with invisible and the linear with cyclical manifestations of change and movement. Thatís yin and yang interpretation. I might go wrong here to interpret precisely, but could you ignore that Chinese has long using circle as their powerful symbol in many fields?

In my view, the circle ontop swfc is seen as a moon gate. It signifies of the earth element or gold. It too represents a balance of yin and yang. I ll only lobby for a design change if the tower is designed in a such way thatís depict a flag shape with a circle at the centre. Now, does swfc look like flag?
Just as much as you are entitled to associating the circle with yinyang and the moon and what-not, so are the other Chinese entitled to associating it with the Japanese flag or sun. What might seem like one thing to you might not be the same for another.

Quote:
Frankly speaking, I must stressed that the culprit behind this controversy are from the over jealousy Chinese architects/scholars. Their critics have a slight indirectly of bad intention, to keep the heats going on. Not every Chinese community thinks the same as them. And, they canít speak on behalf of 1.3 billion Chinese to justify their claim. Thatís their own.
As for Chinese architects being jealous :-/ I'm sure that even if the public doesn't realize the building is designed by Fox Associates, Chinese architects are in the business to know :-D Regardless who designed it, the building is (as far as I know) funded by a Japanese company... On all the early posters, it says the building is to "celebrate the 50 year anniversary of the normalization of relations between China and Japan". If you say the Japanese have no say in the design (assuming that my impression was correct that they are funding the construction) even though they are paying clients, then I would have to disagree.
As much as I hope it's true, architects in China don't have that kind of clout or influence to "speak on behalf of 1.3 billion Chinese"...
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