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Old October 9th, 2005, 10:49 PM   #41
jesarm
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definetly a good and tall tower to Shanghai
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Old October 9th, 2005, 10:50 PM   #42
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"Now this I actually find offensive. You're comparing a military tactic in the midst of war against, iono, a couple thousand troops at most; with the hundreds of thousands (a conservative estimate btw) of CIVILIANS being raped and tortured?"

No im not, but im just showing that these kind of things where done by all sides. Even though not in the same scale druing WW2.

The words comes from a US soldier btw.



"because an offense on the main islands of Japan, particularly Tokyo, would mean major casualties for the US, something Truman wanted to avoid at all cost. "

Japan didnt have much of an army left in Japan, the army left was based in China and it could not get over to Japan as American submarines where patrolling the Japanese sea.


Im not denying anyhting about China's case. Just want to point up that all countries in some way glorified themselves.
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Old October 9th, 2005, 11:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicytimothy
Just as much as you are entitled to associating the circle with yinyang and the moon and what-not, so are the other Chinese entitled to associating it with the Japanese flag or sun. What might seem like one thing to you might not be the same for another.
Yes, each of them is entitled to associate with something. Unfortunately here, the Beijing went associates the design with past history rather than on its chinese philosophy. That's a political influence, not an artistic/culture influence .

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicytimothy
On all the early posters, it says the building is to "celebrate the 50 year anniversary of the normalization of relations between China and Japan".
If they want to normalize relationship, would Beijing change it?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 12:06 AM   #44
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beijing this, beijing that...this building is in shanghai, why can't the decision been made by shanghai ppl, who don't want a circle thing being their new landmark?! seems you keep on implying sth....

personally i don't really care which design to go, but if my countryman decide to change the circle, i'd respect their decision.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 12:25 AM   #45
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Can't they just remove the hole altogether?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 12:38 AM   #46
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theycan't something about the building losing aerodynamics>>>>?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 01:17 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD
Can't they just remove the hole altogether?
Too many political reasons.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 05:57 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD
Can't they just remove the hole altogether?

That would be awesome. It looks the best without the hole.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 06:55 AM   #49
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http://www.skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?b7609


Look at the third one. What is that?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 07:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcanadian
http://www.skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?b7609


Look at the third one. What is that?
the side view duh..
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Old October 10th, 2005, 08:01 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Foong
Yes, each of them is entitled to associate with something. Unfortunately here, the Beijing went associates the design with past history rather than on its chinese philosophy. That's a political influence, not an artistic/culture influence .


If they want to normalize relationship, would Beijing change it?
Just a quick reply, again regardless of the influence everyone's entitled to their opinions and associations of things. When the public doesn't associate it with yingyang and fengshui, and rather associate it with something closer in history and something more visible as the paying client of the building being Japanese and all the problems the 2 countries are having with each other, ultimately it comes down to majority rules... There have been countless polls online and on Chinese tv stations about the design of the building and people DO associate it with the Japanese sun much more than yingyang... in fact the second most likely association was "matching with the Pearl TV Tower" and "Just a design"...

And besides, how did we know that the gov't made them change it? For that matter, what level of the gov't are we talking about here? Was it really a national issue where Hu Jintao was involved? Or was it more of a municipal Shanghai authorities thing? and for that matter, was it even a gov't pressure issue or public pressure issue?

P.S. the normalize relationship thing... it was just what it says on the poster and it's from the Japan side, not Beijing...
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Old October 10th, 2005, 08:17 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKing
"Now this I actually find offensive. You're comparing a military tactic in the midst of war against, iono, a couple thousand troops at most; with the hundreds of thousands (a conservative estimate btw) of CIVILIANS being raped and tortured?"

No im not, but im just showing that these kind of things where done by all sides. Even though not in the same scale druing WW2.
Again, my focus was on the soldiers/civilians dichotomy. I see nothing wrong with military tactics against enemy troops. Both sides were fighting for their country willingly, both sides were ordered to kill troops from the other, it's fair game. But when you're killing and raping civillians for amusement that is of a completely different calibur. Killing civilians for amusement IS NOT DONE BY ALL SIDES. IT SIMPLY ISN'T.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 10:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jue
People call it "stupid politics" because China is taking a bloody long time to show any hint of forgiving. Most of these nationalists were not even alive during the Anti-Japanese War. Are the Japanese still hating the United States for its strategic bombing campaigns that killed millions of civilians? The latter did not apologise much either. One might say "oh, but that's war", but the Japanese make such claims about their atrocities in China too. No one questioned the legitimacy of the grudge on a technical basis; that hatred is still actively encouraged seventy years hence is unacceptable.
The reason why Chinese cannot forgive Japan is not because Japan never apologize, it is because Japan DENIED the fact they massacred millions of Chinese (particularly in Nanjin). They even try to cover this up in their history book. Most of Japanese kids don't even know Japan killed millions of Chinese, and many kids thought Japan was the war victim.

You need to understand the difference between Japanese and Germen. Germen at least acknowlege the fact that Nazi killed millions of Jews and destroyed other European countries. Germen even built a Jewish Memorial in its own city. Japan on the other hand, simply tries to convince its citizen that the invasion simply didn't take place.

Yes, a war is a war and people die, and frankly I don't think Japan needs to apologize. But they need to at least acknowlege the fact that the they started WWII and killed many Asians (Chinese, Korean). Killing for one's survival is understandable, but intentionally lying is another issue.

Just think of it this way, if you know your wife was cheating on you, she admitted it but she didn't apologize because she thought you never cared about her, that's one thing. However, if you have firm evidence that your wife was cheating on you big time, but she kept denying it and pretend it never happend, then how would you feel? Would you ever trust her again? And this is precisely what the Chinese is feeling toward the Japanese.
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Last edited by philip; October 10th, 2005 at 11:26 AM.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 11:18 AM   #54
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spicytimothy, you think the private Japanese developer paid off Fox architects to make such a design? I'm sure the educated Japanese developers know at least some of what happened in WWII, or do you think they still want to preach Japanese superiority in Asia? I somehow can't imagine that...what do you think?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 01:58 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10025
Source: xitek.com
Hahahah, you are so hilarious.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 02:03 PM   #56
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Wasn't all that "design change" thing just a joke posted by some forumer in the previous SWFC thread?
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Old October 10th, 2005, 05:26 PM   #57
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"Again, my focus was on the soldiers/civilians dichotomy. I see nothing wrong with military tactics against enemy troops. Both sides were fighting for their country willingly, both sides were ordered to kill troops from the other, it's fair game"

How is it a military fair tactics to starve prisoners, take their bodyparts as souvenirs, dont let them surrender, throw em out of airplanes and then reporting "they commited suicide". Thats not tactics. That built on hate more or less. Just as america was disliked by many japanese, mainly japanese students which had heard how bad asians where threated in America. Japans was also more or less hated by a lot of americans, it was a lot of antijapanese propaganda to for example in american newspapers. In a vote during the WW2 a majority of the voters thought america should bomb Japan to the ground.'

Anyhow, i hope China and Japan's relation can keep getting better in the future, i would love to visit both countries. If chinese people doesnt appreciate the design and it creates unpleasent reactions. Then change it.


Sad that NF refused japans proposal that all countries and people should be treated equally (Brittain was strongly against it)(by the time, Japan also had unfair trading policies forced on them). Which contributed for Japan leaving NF, and later making it able for the military to take more and more important positions in Japan.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 07:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John
Wasn't all that "design change" thing just a joke posted by some forumer in the previous SWFC thread?

this time it is for real they have changed the boards on the site too.
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Old October 10th, 2005, 08:18 PM   #59
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^ They're not really changing it to a square hole are they? I really hope not!!
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Old October 10th, 2005, 08:23 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubaiflo
this time it is for real they have changed the boards on the site too.
I don't know what to think anymore, probably because i haven't seen any proof of the new design yet, not a single link to a news article or something. Renderings can easily be fake.
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