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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:30 AM   #321
pmaciej7
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Rekec(slo), which motorway did you drive? Maybe toll A4 from Katowice to Kraków?
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:34 AM   #322
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Yeah, that toll A4 is quite old when i drove there. I think that was the oldest post-nazi-era motorway.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:36 AM   #323
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No, it wasn't post nazi, as i wrote on Curiosities, it was opened in 1983.
But it is in really bad condition.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:43 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmaciej7 View Post
Rekec(slo), which motorway did you drive? Maybe toll A4 from Katowice to Kraków?
I don't know for sure. I was on bus (School trip to Auschwitz). But I remember we drove from Maribor-Vienna-Brno- (Katowice?)- Krakow.

But Czech motorways were worse than Polish. I also remember i saw a lot of construction workers repairing roads.

p.s.: I have to say, that Krakow is one of the best looking cities in the world! And also very modern, with clean streets great roads. Krakow looked much better than München in Germany.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:06 AM   #325
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Why every school trip to Poland must visit Auschwitz? And half of them gain conviction, that it was polish camp... Why couldn't they show you more Kraków? Or Zakopane or brewery in Żywiec or whatever?

Ok, i'll be quiet and go back to topic. This motorway is a real crap, it's under reconstruction since 1995 . But still it is fully paid.
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Last edited by pmaciej7; November 14th, 2007 at 01:16 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:27 AM   #326
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Why every school trip to Poland must visit Auschwitz? And half of them gain conviction, that it was polish camp... Why couldn't they show you more Kraków? Or Zakopane or brewery in Żywiec or whatever?

Ok, i'll be quiet and go back to topic. This motorway is a real crap, it's under reconstruction since 1995 . But still it is fully paid.
We all know that this was Nazi concentration camp, and that has nothing to do with Poland, except that it is placed in Poland.
But we did spend 1 whole day in Krakow, watching beautiful architecture (buying silly cheap cigarettes, and getting drunk). And in Auschwitz we spent only 4 hours.

I was positively surprised, since I thought Poland will look less developed
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmaciej7 View Post
Why every school trip to Poland must visit Auschwitz? And half of them gain conviction, that it was polish camp... Why couldn't they show you more Kraków? Or Zakopane or brewery in Żywiec or whatever?

Ok, i'll be quiet and go back to topic. This motorway is a real crap, it's under reconstruction since 1995 . But still it is fully paid.
Because Auschwitz is THE symbol of the mass extermination of the Jewish population by the Nazis. A very, very big part of history.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by [NL] Mr.Mit. [NL] View Post
Yes the pavement is absolute crap, it looks exactly like the pavement in this picture.
It's like your driving on concrete blocks! This part is made in the 60's, but I don't think it's renovated once!
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Old November 14th, 2007, 02:09 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rekec(SLO) View Post
We all know that this was Nazi concentration camp, and that has nothing to do with Poland, except that it is placed in Poland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIWIKAAS View Post
Because Auschwitz is THE symbol of the mass extermination of the Jewish population by the Nazis. A very, very big part of history.
I only wonder, if people at the age of 14-16 are ready to visit that kind of place and realize, what really happened there. And my answer is: no, they aren't. I saw many young, immature people saying: wow, burning people, that's really cool! And when get older, they only remeber pile of glasses, pile of hair, pile of clothing, story of the people killed there and, what is most dangerous, that this camp was in Poland. And then they have simple association - Poles killed people.
I'm glad you see the difference between "Polish concentration camp" and "nazi concentration camp in Poland"

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Originally Posted by rekec(SLO) View Post
But we did spend 1 whole day in Krakow, watching beautiful architecture (buying silly cheap cigarettes, and getting drunk).
You barbarian!!

Ok, that is nothing more, that what i do while being in Kraków: drinking a lot of beer and smoking cigars

Let's go back to motorways, even crappy .
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Old November 14th, 2007, 02:50 AM   #330
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I only wonder, if people at the age of 14-16 are ready to visit that kind of place and realize, what really happened there. And my answer is: no, they aren't. I saw many young, immature people saying: wow, burning people, that's really cool! And when get older, they only remeber pile of glasses, pile of hair, pile of clothing, story of the people killed there and, what is most dangerous, that this camp was in Poland. And then they have simple association - Poles killed people.
Do you really think that youngster are that stupid?

I was 16 when i visited Auschwitz with my school and i can tell you that nobody there ever forgets what they saw there. People who bagatalize or even deny the holocaust should see it with their own eyes. Thats why it's a good thing such excursions are made. The impact on everybody was huge and we all carry it with us for the rest of our lives.

Now back on topic?
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Old November 14th, 2007, 03:41 AM   #331
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Quote:
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Do you really think that youngster are that stupid?

I was 16 when i visited Auschwitz with my school and i can tell you that nobody there ever forgets what they saw there. People who bagatalize or even deny the holocaust should see it with their own eyes. Thats why it's a good thing such excursions are made. The impact on everybody was huge and we all carry it with us for the rest of our lives.

Now back on topic?
I just wanted to say i completely agree with that.

pmaciej7 your really don't have to worry that Polish people will be connected to Auschwitz in our minds. Polish , Yugoslavs, Gypsies , Jews , and other Non-Germans were only victims.
Concentration camps were run STRICTLY by Germans (our guide, and our professor both said that)
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Old November 14th, 2007, 11:51 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rekec(SLO) View Post
I have been to Krakow on March, and unfortunately Polish highways are crappy. They are not wide, full of holes, bad signs. But i also saw some improvement, and I think they will get great highways. (Roads in Krakow were actually excellent)

Verso are there any crappy highways in our Slovenia? I usually drive from Maribor to Koper (210 km) and there is not a single hole. Only near Slovenska Bistrica pavement is a bit "uneven".
but new polish motorways look really great, nobody can deny it (except Radi).

about Slovenia - i remember one bad section, but i was somewhere about 1996-1997: Kozarje - cestninska postaja LJ zahod was quite bad. i remember it was repaired, but it was not repaved by whole width of lane, but to half, about 1 m wide. it looked quite crappy. fortunately, it's been repaired till today.


and stop with offtopic.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:25 PM   #333
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No, we won't stop offtopic! I had an answer!
Ok then, i'll send PM.

We have a lot of crappy roads, and motorways as well. Have you ever seen 10 cm ruts on 5 year old expressway? Have you seen 70 years old, not renovated ex-german motorway? This picture posted by Verso was not the top one. Grrr...

And Poland is the only country, where motorway was deconstructed. Some parts of ex-german motorways from Cottbus to Bolesławiec (A18) and today's DK22 form Elbląg to Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) - not finished carriageways were pulled down after WWII. Can you imagine that?

And talking about slovenian motorways, most crappy are missing parts of motorways, for example A2 Ljubljana-Karawanke.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:26 PM   #334
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but on pictures those new sections of A4 for instance looked really well, especially part near Katowice
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:40 PM   #335
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A4 near Katowoce is polish pride and joy . Only one with 3 lanes, build in a hard area (coal mines).

As you see A4 is Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde of polish motorways. Some parts are great, but some are a real crap.

This summer i drove from Legnica to Kraków - 313km and it was swing of moods.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:50 PM   #336
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At least the worst part is rehabilitated (Krzyzowa - Wrocław)
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:04 PM   #337
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It is now finished. Narrow, with only two traffic lanes, with no emergency lanes, with permanent 110 instead of 130. This is second crappy part. I already showed pictures.
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Old November 15th, 2007, 08:27 PM   #338
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And Poland is the only country, where motorway was deconstructed. Some parts of ex-german motorways from Cottbus to Bolesławiec (A18) and today's DK22 form Elbląg to Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) - not finished carriageways were pulled down after WWII. Can you imagine that?
WTF are you talking about? Those nazi-built motorways never had the second carriageway!

When the Adolf-Hitler-strassen were built, they always made the earthwork for both carriageways. They used soldiers and later prisoners for this kind of work, so "the labour was cheap"... Do you know that traces of earthwork for the autobahn from Szczecin to the east go on for about 150 km? http://www.berlinka.pcp.pl/berlinka.html

But for bridges and the pavement you need concrete and steel. In a wartime there's not enough of them, especially steel... So, they weren't too hasty to build both carriageways, escpecially where they weren't needed at the time. The tanks can go over 1 lane, there's no need to build the other...

Generally, in Poland we used what the nazis left behind, with minor reconstructions where it was useful. For example, 1 or 2 bridges on the DK22 closer to Elbląg were rebuilt, but other bridges on the route to (then closed) russian border were destroyed in the fights of 1945, and noone bothered to rebuild them, as they were on a road leading to nowhere... So the concrete pavement was still there, it just got covered with moss and grass (a good picture to illustrate: http://www.berlinka.pcp.pl/szyleny1991.jpg).

(Info for foreigners: DK22 is now being rebuilt to 1x2-expressway standards, as the Russians want to open the border-crossing on that old autobahn to Kaliningrad/Königsberg).
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Old November 15th, 2007, 10:51 PM   #339
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fascinating
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Old November 15th, 2007, 11:34 PM   #340
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@ E2rdEm: Easy man, don't be so nervous. I didn't say one of active carriageways, i said not finished carriageways. You must remeber, that some roads were abandoned by Germans, far before 1945 in the state, they were in that moment. I know that, because my grandfather worked by deconstructing some pavement sections. What happened to these concrete blocks? I dont know.
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