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Old September 22nd, 2008, 08:56 AM   #301
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Old September 30th, 2008, 01:08 PM   #302
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From news.gov.hk:
Gov't to finance Kai Tak cruise terminal
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Old September 30th, 2008, 03:32 PM   #303
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2013!!!??? That's only 5 years from now.
The whole thing is not just the terminal building, but with the supporting infrastructures in the whole KT area. It's a huge remediation, planning, design and construction project.
I think the government wants it to be operational by 2013 is just too optimistic.
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Old September 30th, 2008, 09:27 PM   #304
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Well they're ONLY building the terminal for now, and for that matter only the first anchoring spot in 2013. They're doing everything else separately. After WKCD I doubt they'll try anything so sweeping anymore.

I just hope they're gonna get a starchitect for this. We can't afford another bland boring design, especially on the waterfront!
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Old October 1st, 2008, 06:39 AM   #305
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Well they're ONLY building the terminal for now, and for that matter only the first anchoring spot in 2013. They're doing everything else separately. After WKCD I doubt they'll try anything so sweeping anymore.

I just hope they're gonna get a starchitect for this. We can't afford another bland boring design, especially on the waterfront!
It's more than just the terminal. If you think about, there is nothing out at the end of the runway today. In order to support the operation for the terminal, there is a need to also provide roadway, electricity, water, sewage etc. etc. basic infrastructures. These services have to be brought in from somewhere relatively far, either from Kowloon Bay or cross the water from Kwun Tong.

Usually when there is a project like this out in the middle of nowhere, it is not just going to build and design for just the only building out there. The future development in between would also be considered. Therefore the infrastructures can not only support the terminal, but also have reserve capacity for future use.

Plus, as far as I know, the government has not had cleaned up entirely from the pollution back in the old days. Remediation of any airport is a pain and long process. It can take years to do it easily.

It's already October, 2008, 2013 is a very tight schedule to do all these works.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 08:24 AM   #306
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Kai Tak set for $1.4b green air-con system
Hong Kong Standard
Thursday, October 16, 2008

A HK$1.4 billion project to provide water-cooled air-conditioning to future occupants of the Kai Tak development was unveiled by Donald Tsang yesterday.

The Environmental Bureau project, starting 2012, is expected to break even in 27 years, saving 85,000 kilowatt-hours a year and emitting 60,000 less tonnes of carbon dioxide than conventional cooling. Users would pay the government and save roughly 20 percent in costs.

The project, available to government buildings that will form 35 percent of the development, is expected to attract at least another 15 percent of residential and commercial buildings, he said.

A swath of environmental measures were also announced, but green groups expressed concern over the lack of details behind pledges.

Connecting a quality living environment with air quality and declaring it "just as important as economic growth," Tsang said the objectives will "give due regard to the World Health Organization's guidelines."

Greenpeace campaign manager Edward Chan Yue-fai said Tsang's proposals lacked substance, adding the bar was set too low by not adopting the WHO's strictest standards.

He was also unhappy with a lack of roadside emission policies, which should have been considered in reducing overall pollution.

Calling for better energy efficiency and a low- carbon economy, Tsang said post-2010 emission reduction arrangements would be made with Guangdong while balancing the region's power generation fuel mix with a boost in the use of renewable energy.

Objectives for vehicle emission reductions, conservation, greening and other specific measures on both sides of the border, along with a mechanism on how the two jurisdictions will coordinate, will be discussed, he said.

World Wildlife Fund for Nature chief executive Eric Bohm said absolute carbon reduction targets and mandatory carbon emission standards for buildings and transport should be adopted.

Tsang pledged the share of coal in the energy mix would be lowered, floating the possibility that natural gas could make up 50 percent of the city's power generation.

With a study to control emissions from the airport and container ports expected, he said the government is considering switching to ultra-low sulfur diesel for ferries.

To tackle building energy efficiency, he is proposing HK$150 million from the Environment and Conservation Fund to partially subsidize building owners for energy and carbon audits, good for 6,000 buildings, while another HK$300 million would be for energy-efficiency projects.

Aside from phasing out incandescent light bulbs, the government will also look into banning their sale while regulating exterior lighting through legislation.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 09:39 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricIsHim View Post
It's more than just the terminal. If you think about, there is nothing out at the end of the runway today. In order to support the operation for the terminal, there is a need to also provide roadway, electricity, water, sewage etc. etc. basic infrastructures. These services have to be brought in from somewhere relatively far, either from Kowloon Bay or cross the water from Kwun Tong.

Usually when there is a project like this out in the middle of nowhere, it is not just going to build and design for just the only building out there. The future development in between would also be considered. Therefore the infrastructures can not only support the terminal, but also have reserve capacity for future use.

Plus, as far as I know, the government has not had cleaned up entirely from the pollution back in the old days. Remediation of any airport is a pain and long process. It can take years to do it easily.

It's already October, 2008, 2013 is a very tight schedule to do all these works.
Hmm you're right about the infrastructure needed, but Hong Kong is renowned for getting things done quick (once it's been approved)... So I don't think 2013 is completely unreasonable.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 04:42 AM   #308
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I was very surprised that the West Kowloon site was not adequate for a cruise terminal. Considering all that was reclaimed land, the depth should have been enough as that whole zone used to be a bit offshore.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 04:59 AM   #309
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I was very surprised that the West Kowloon site was not adequate for a cruise terminal. Considering all that was reclaimed land, the depth should have been enough as that whole zone used to be a bit offshore.
The old runway is the perfect location to build numbers of docks to dock those huge cruise ships since the runway is a perfect straight edge. The West Kowloon reclamation project didn't plan to provide such a long straight edge for cruise terminal, and the new coast line is fairly rugged. Without doing more reclamation, it is not possible to construct the same scale of cruise terminal in West Kowloon compares to at Kai Tak along the runway; and we all know reclamation inside the Victoria Harbour is a big NO these days. The government tries to avoid reclaiming land from the sea in any possible way for all the new projects come after the Protection of Harbour Ordinance. By building the new terminal at Kai Tak, it saves lots of time from reclamation and rezoning the Western Kowloon Cultural district.

Moreover, the new cruise terminal will probably bring the good old Kowloon Bay back. But people won't come from the sky, but by sea in the future.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 05:02 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricIsHim View Post
The old runway is the perfect location to build numbers of docks to dock those huge cruise ships since the runway is a perfect straight edge. The West Kowloon reclamation project didn't plan to provide such a long straight edge for cruise terminal, and the new coast line is fairly rugged. Without doing more reclamation, it is not possible to construct the same scale of cruise terminal in West Kowloon compares to at Kai Tak along the runway; and we all know reclamation inside the Victoria Harbour is a big NO these days. The government tries to avoid reclaiming land from the sea in any possible way for all the new projects come after the Protection of Harbour Ordinance. By building the new terminal at Kai Tak, it saves lots of time from reclamation and rezoning the Western Kowloon Cultural district.

Moreover, the new cruise terminal will probably bring the good old Kowloon Bay back. But people won't come from the sky, but by sea in the future.
Actually, my radical proposal was to get rid of the typhoon shelter entirely and have the cruise ship terminal split into 2 - one along the typhoon shelter's edge, and the other along the southern straight edge where Foster's huge dome would have been. That should easily accomodate 4 ships at the same time. Over time, for expansion, the typhoon shelter breakwater can be widened to accomodate 4 more ships.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 05:15 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Actually, my radical proposal was to get rid of the typhoon shelter entirely and have the cruise ship terminal split into 2 - one along the typhoon shelter's edge, and the other along the southern straight edge where Foster's huge dome would have been. That should easily accomodate 4 ships at the same time. Over time, for expansion, the typhoon shelter breakwater can be widened to accomodate 4 more ships.
I can see that idea may work but there are many constraints.
If the cruise terminal would put in there, the breakaway will have to be removed for sure to accommodate the big ships. Second, relocating the typhoon shelter is a big challenge since there is simply nowhere to relocate it nearby. Third, available land space between the existing shore line and the West Kowloon Expressway is very narrow, and not suitable house any structure as big as a cruise terminal.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 05:46 AM   #312
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I can see that idea may work but there are many constraints.
If the cruise terminal would put in there, the breakaway will have to be removed for sure to accommodate the big ships. Second, relocating the typhoon shelter is a big challenge since there is simply nowhere to relocate it nearby. Third, available land space between the existing shore line and the West Kowloon Expressway is very narrow, and not suitable house any structure as big as a cruise terminal.
True, but I think the overall development cost is likely cheaper than having to build all the infrastructure from scratch and the connection points to existing transit networks at Kai Tak. The key is the West Kowloon site can make use of existing roads and rail connections (ie. Kowloon Station, making ICC even more attractive as a new hub). The final price tag is not likely cheap, and hopefully with a declining fishing industry, the existing occupants can move elsewhere. Actually, that typhoon shelter is mostly a parking area for larger commercial ships and not really the mom-and-pop fishermen families like in Aberdeen.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 06:05 AM   #313
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Quote:
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True, but I think the overall development cost is likely cheaper than having to build all the infrastructure from scratch and the connection points to existing transit networks at Kai Tak. The key is the West Kowloon site can make use of existing roads and rail connections (ie. Kowloon Station, making ICC even more attractive as a new hub). The final price tag is not likely cheap, and hopefully with a declining fishing industry, the existing occupants can move elsewhere. Actually, that typhoon shelter is mostly a parking area for larger commercial ships and not really the mom-and-pop fishermen families like in Aberdeen.
Overall infrastructure cost shouldn't be lump summed into only the cruise terminal project, because these infrastructures are not exclusively used by the terminal, but will also be used by future developments in the airport area.
True, the initial construction cost may be huge, but it takes care the future expense. Even if we don't spend the money now, we still will.

Typhoon shelter isn't necessary only for the fisting boat, but the mid-size commercial ships which also need to be protected during the typhoon. Even Aberdeen Typhoon Shelter isn't entirely for fishing boats, half of it is actually used by the yacht club. Indeed, I don't think there is any fishing boat still in YMT Typhoon Shelter these days.

But if West Kowloon were a feasible location, it certainly is the place. The terminal would be greatly connected with rest of the world. It's only 20 minutes from the international airport by Airport Express; when the HKIA-SZ HSR link completes, it's 40-min from the national airport; when the HK-GZ HSR link completes, it's only an hour away from GZ.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 12:38 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by EricIsHim View Post
Overall infrastructure cost shouldn't be lump summed into only the cruise terminal project, because these infrastructures are not exclusively used by the terminal, but will also be used by future developments in the airport area.
True, the initial construction cost may be huge, but it takes care the future expense. Even if we don't spend the money now, we still will.

Typhoon shelter isn't necessary only for the fisting boat, but the mid-size commercial ships which also need to be protected during the typhoon. Even Aberdeen Typhoon Shelter isn't entirely for fishing boats, half of it is actually used by the yacht club. Indeed, I don't think there is any fishing boat still in YMT Typhoon Shelter these days.

But if West Kowloon were a feasible location, it certainly is the place. The terminal would be greatly connected with rest of the world. It's only 20 minutes from the international airport by Airport Express; when the HKIA-SZ HSR link completes, it's 40-min from the national airport; when the HK-GZ HSR link completes, it's only an hour away from GZ.
I believe the feasibility was studied, and concluded that it was not an appropriate site for a cruise terminal, which was a bit strange to digest since Ocean Terminal is working fine nearby.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 05:35 PM   #315
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I believe the feasibility was studied, and concluded that it was not an appropriate site for a cruise terminal, which was a bit strange to digest since Ocean Terminal is working fine nearby.
It's probably more a constructibility decision rather than operational.
Either sites is deep enough for cruise ship to access and dock without underwater trenching.
But West Kowloon requires relocating the typhoon shelter and reclamation, which are more problematic than Kai Tak.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 06:06 PM   #316
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Quote:
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It's probably more a constructibility decision rather than operational.
Either sites is deep enough for cruise ship to access and dock without underwater trenching.
But West Kowloon requires relocating the typhoon shelter and reclamation, which are more problematic than Kai Tak.
My concern is primarily on how to bring cruise passengers into the hustle and bustle of Hong Kong. I'm expecting the terminal to finish before the rest of the development, which means incoming passengers will get off in the middle of nowhere and will need to transfer into the city. But even when the Kai Tak development is complete, I doubt the demographic profile is rich enough to support an Elements-style introduction to cruise passengers.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 06:23 PM   #317
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By heyman from HKADB :

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Old October 20th, 2008, 06:34 PM   #318
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My concern is primarily on how to bring cruise passengers into the hustle and bustle of Hong Kong. I'm expecting the terminal to finish before the rest of the development, which means incoming passengers will get off in the middle of nowhere and will need to transfer into the city. But even when the Kai Tak development is complete, I doubt the demographic profile is rich enough to support an Elements-style introduction to cruise passengers.
It's better than dock the cruise ship at the container port which we did a few years back. And recently there was one had to dock off shore and be shuttled back and fro using connecting boats and shuttle buses for only four times a day.

The main connection in the first phase probably won't be in and out of Kowloon City which is 2-3 km away from the end of the runway and through construction sites, but in and out through Kowloon Bay / Kwun Tong just few hundred metres across the water gap. Running shuttle back and fro between the MTR will be a whole lot easier that way.

It is still hard to say what is the demographic in the new Kai Tak development will be since it is still in planning. It's more likely going to be
a mixed of middle class housing complex as well as public housing in medium density rather than high density. The stadium is still going around as well.
Anyways, the entry of Victoria Harbour from the cruise is going to be the grand intro of HK.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:11 AM   #319
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The main connection in the first phase probably won't be in and out of Kowloon City which is 2-3 km away from the end of the runway and through construction sites, but in and out through Kowloon Bay / Kwun Tong just few hundred metres across the water gap. Running shuttle back and fro between the MTR will be a whole lot easier that way.

It is still hard to say what is the demographic in the new Kai Tak development will be since it is still in planning. It's more likely going to be
a mixed of middle class housing complex as well as public housing in medium density rather than high density. The stadium is still going around as well.
Anyways, the entry of Victoria Harbour from the cruise is going to be the grand intro of HK.
That's actually the biggest problem with the Kai Tak plan. A grand entrance via Kwun Tong / Kowloon Bay is hardly a great way to welcome visitors to Hong Kong.

I highly doubt that even with that income mix an Elements-style high-class shopping experience is sustainable at the tip of the runway and survive on cruise passengers alone. This will also mean the grand entrance to Hong Kong will likely need to diminish.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 03:19 PM   #320
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