#Carlton Hotel - Residential/Renovation - 30F - Johannesburg CBD

[capetown]

Please post the latest news and pics on the Carlton Hotel, which is to be turned largely into apartments with shops on the first level. It was once the poshest hotel in Joburg and had 663 room and until 1988 was operated by Westin Hotels (now part of Starwood Lodging). According to the Joburg News Agency there are plans to revamp the building which is part of the Carlton Centre office and shopping complex which are now owned by Transnet/Propnet.

As we know the Carlton Hotel closed completely in April 1998 because of inner city decline. The nearby HI Garden Court (formerly Johannesburg Sun) had 672 rooms before it was also forced to close down by Sept 1998.

Look forward to your replies!!!

[SA BOY]

well the HI agrden court (ex Joburg sun) has been reopened called Kwa Duzuka hotel and one would hope that there are better times ahead for the SOM designed Carlton Hotel

[waltjie]

Im not too sure about this Kwa Dukuza Hotel 'ey.... does it actually operate?? Ive never been sure...

[Harkeb]

It would be totally awesome to see these iconic building rise from the ashes. It would be even more awesome, if the Carlton could get a very modern facelift, to become the centre piece of the Joburg skyline.

[SA BOY]

Originally Posted by waltjie

Im not too sure about this Kwa Dukuza Hotel 'ey.... does it actually operate?? Ive never been sure...

might be a job for Tom?

[capetown]

Folks,

I doubt that the Carlton Hotel will reopen as a hotel, let alone the five-star hotel it once was in the 1980's. I think that it is more likely to be converted into executive apartments for the personnel and clients of Transnet. The press had reported about it in 2002 reopening as a 200-room, three-star hotel (less than a third of it's original size) with apartments making up the rest. But so far there hasn't been any takers. It is obvious that potential hotel operators do not consider the Carlton Hotel a viable option. It would cost more to revamp it's outmoded rooms than to build a new hotel south of the CBD.

As for the former Johannesburg Sun (now the ghostly Kwa-Dukuza Egoli Hotel), it remains shuttered. It was open briefly by the city council for the 2002 Earth Summit as an overflow. While at the time there was hype about it reopening as a newly-revamped hotel, that was certainly not the case. one has to go by it and see that it's still derelict. The city council has not been transparent about the matter and it was wishful thinking that there would be demand for a 672-room hotel in a CBD. It will take the Joburg CBD 15-20 years to recover from three decades of decline and neglect. Likewise it is unlikely that the former Joburg Sun will reopen as a hotel. I think that like the Carlton it will eventually be converted to residential along with the adjoining Towers which used to have 115 executive suites until it was closed down in 1992.

[Los Pumas]

The Carlton Hotel has a great architecture, it's such a shame it's closed!
The HI it's still closed, at least in July it was.

[thryve]

Originally Posted by SA BOY

might be a job for Tom?

I believe it is partly opened as a hotel as of recently... then again, that may not be true.

(Re: the Kwa Dukuza Hotel)

[joburg]

Nope as far as I know it is as dead as a dodo. I don't think we should completely rule out the venue as a hotel venue, as don't forget we have the World Cup coming up, but I think the most likely option is that the building will be converted into apartments sometime in the future, provided the surrounding area is fixed up.

(Re: the Kwa Dukuza Hotel)

[thryve]

Originally Posted by joburg

I think the most likely option is that the building will be converted into apartments sometime in the future, provided the surrounding area is fixed up.

Really? I think the Kwa Dukuza will be used as a hotel during the 2010 soccer.. no? Perhaps a mixed-use condos and hotel? :P

[capetown]

I think that if it used for the 2010 World Cup then it should be a sectional-title hotel with 200 rooms and the rest should become apartments. The 20-storey Towers next to it should be converted to luxury apartments. If KwaDukuza Egoli becomes a sectional-title hotel then the units can be converted back to residential after the cup is over if the market doesn't support a three or four star hotel in the CBD. Like wise the Carlton should be done the same way with a mixed-use sectional-title hotel and residential apartments.

[mike2005]

The hotel is defo closed and the surrounding area is still not very nice, but it is very sad to see such a stunning building empty. I really hope someone opens a hotel on hollard sq /main street area because that area has sooooooooo much potential and is the best part of joburg as far as iam concerned. I am so frustrated that no developer has seen the potential for plaza style developments down that end of downtown, ie: converting old office buildings into apartments and opening up a mini mall/piaza type shopping precinct down there. I reckon the critical mass of people ie: BHP, ANGLO, STANDARD BANK employees is enough to make it a viable option.

[thryve]

SA BOY, in the Joburg discussion thread you mentioned that this was to be converted to condominiums... can you tell us any more details?

[SA BOY]

just read that there were plans to convert to appartments as 2 hotel bays (40m2 each ie 80m2) could make a 1 bed and 3 bays (120m2) could make a 2 bed unit. 4bays (160m2 ) for a 3 bed etc
This is typically how hotels get converted.
It will cost but I belive you could get a good return due to critical; mass of units to be converted, good hotel facilities (pool deck, lobby, interconnection to mall and pedestrinised surounds, on site parking etc


Same goes for Joburg Sun (will revert to origional name as its no longe KEH), this would take more time and may not be as good a properrsistion (no openable windows) but never the less these structures stand and with some TLC and forsite (such as urban ocen) these could be fantastic appartment oppotunities

[Pule]

What about Carlton Centre itself, are we gonna see more high-class clothings brands occupying the space? and small street, what's gonna happen there?

[Mosi-oa-Tunya]

That is good news that the Carlton and Johannesburg Sun will be converted into apartments. I thought this was the best plan for these former hotels as they are too outmoded to reopen as hotels in a changed market for luxury hotels. The Joburg Sun would present a problem as it doesn't have opening windows unlike the Carlton, but in order to convert building it will need this modification. How much it will cost I don't know but the yields would have to be higher to cover the costly upgrades. The Carlton Centre mall is fully let and would certainly present an opportunity at least for the Carlton Hotel being converted into residential space.

[SA BOY]

I head carlton is being proposed and not the Joburg sun, thats my propoosal

[hsark]

the kwa dukuza`was used for the earth summit as somebody mentioned before so i don't see why it can't be used for the worldcup could become a usual 3star hotel

[joburg]

Where did you hear about it Giles? it's great stuff..

[SA BOY]

read an article on the plane somewhere last year