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Old January 22nd, 2009, 07:17 PM   #181
honwai1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
well, whats it matter?
in 10 years time everyone will be supplied by.......china
It may be.

As mainland China is still R&D and importing other technologies from other countries~~
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 07:23 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by honwai1983 View Post
It may be.

As mainland China is still R&D and importing other technologies from other countries~~
yeah

meanwhile the total order of high-speed trains for the entire european continent is below 500* units.....and thats for the next 5-7 years
thats less than 100 units / year....for the entire continent

we should _already_ have a paris-istanbul 360kph line, we should already have a berlin-paris 360kph line, but what do we have: the germans and the austrians are so stingy they only build 250kph and only very short sections, the rest will remain 160kph
and eastern europe (hungary especially ) is a JOKE


*: hmm, according to http://www.railfaneurope.net/ there are only 160 trainsets currently ordered in the whole of europe (turkey and russia included) that can go 250kph or above
160!!! thats pathetic
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 09:03 PM   #183
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So, any news on the Gotthard Tunnel.
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Japan Projects & Construction

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Old January 22nd, 2009, 09:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
This is completely bull.
If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements

The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competing here in the Japanese market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.
While you may be "technically" correct, if you are Japanese, you must understand that a non-Japanese High Speed train in Japan is extremely unlikely.

Those strict requirements are a result of continuous improvement in those areas and while Japan DOES have high standards, the truth, the "本音" is that it just wouldn't be allowed. The Japanese economy is very protectionist. This is not entirely a bad thing, but honestly, now... you know it will likely never be "allowed" to happen. Even if a train MET those requirements, it's likely a reason would be found to make it not worth the effort.

Japan likes to use homegrown technology and in some fields, "unofficially" closes the door.

If you ride an N700 shinkansen, you will see a sign on the door. It says something like: "If you...[open door/push alarm/something else], you will be inquired by attendants"

I'm not sure about the first part, but the second part is verbatim.

While this is understandable English, it's awkward and obviously not written by an English native speaker. Why? Why, in a progressive nation didn't the National Railway, on the railway's flagship train, not hire a native English translator to write this warning messages in English? Why? Because a Japanese person who has learned English is preferable.

If you walk around Ninjo-jo(the shogun's old house) in Kyoto, a World Heritage site, a national treasure, a popular tourist spot... there is a sign which says: "No parking for emehgency vehicle".[sic] A missing comma/word completely change the meaning to the opposite of what's intended. (Spelling mistake intentional, twas how it was written). This is a world heritage site, you'd think the government of Japan would hire an native English speaker. There's a lot of them in Japan.

These two examples aren't entirely related to the topic, but they demonstrate that, in general, Japan prefers to use Japanese people, Japanese technology, Japanese food products. It's just the way it is. Again, not entirely a bad thing, but to say that the main reason Europeans don't try to compete in Japan is because the standards of Japan are too high is not telling the whole story.

I'm sure the European train systems could at least compete on price, though with the easy access to loans from Japanese banks at almost no interest, I think even then, Japanese systems would win out.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Euro trains currently meet "Japanese" standards, I'm just saying that it's not the whole story, and really only plays a minor role in the big picture... and if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that too. If not, perhaps you need to look at Japan from a non-Japanese point of view.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 01:11 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
While you may be "technically" correct, if you are Japanese, you must understand that a non-Japanese High Speed train in Japan is extremely unlikely.

Those strict requirements are a result of continuous improvement in those areas and while Japan DOES have high standards, the truth, the "本音" is that it just wouldn't be allowed. The Japanese economy is very protectionist. This is not entirely a bad thing, but honestly, now... you know it will likely never be "allowed" to happen. Even if a train MET those requirements, it's likely a reason would be found to make it not worth the effort.

Japan likes to use homegrown technology and in some fields, "unofficially" closes the door.

If you ride an N700 shinkansen, you will see a sign on the door. It says something like: "If you...[open door/push alarm/something else], you will be inquired by attendants"

I'm not sure about the first part, but the second part is verbatim.

While this is understandable English, it's awkward and obviously not written by an English native speaker. Why? Why, in a progressive nation didn't the National Railway, on the railway's flagship train, not hire a native English translator to write this warning messages in English? Why? Because a Japanese person who has learned English is preferable.

If you walk around Ninjo-jo(the shogun's old house) in Kyoto, a World Heritage site, a national treasure, a popular tourist spot... there is a sign which says: "No parking for emehgency vehicle".[sic] A missing comma/word completely change the meaning to the opposite of what's intended. (Spelling mistake intentional, twas how it was written). This is a world heritage site, you'd think the government of Japan would hire an native English speaker. There's a lot of them in Japan.

These two examples aren't entirely related to the topic, but they demonstrate that, in general, Japan prefers to use Japanese people, Japanese technology, Japanese food products. It's just the way it is. Again, not entirely a bad thing, but to say that the main reason Europeans don't try to compete in Japan is because the standards of Japan are too high is not telling the whole story.

I'm sure the European train systems could at least compete on price, though with the easy access to loans from Japanese banks at almost no interest, I think even then, Japanese systems would win out.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Euro trains currently meet "Japanese" standards, I'm just saying that it's not the whole story, and really only plays a minor role in the big picture... and if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that too. If not, perhaps you need to look at Japan from a non-Japanese point of view.

Oh boy, just two signboards as proof that the whole Japanese society is protectionist.
The first one your not even sure if it was the exact wording and the second one is probably 20~30 years old.
Look, foreign companies would probably meet some resistance but if their product including after service were superior than the Japanese then they will have no problem in winning.
If they didn't they can take it to court.
That is how it works but you insist that Japan would not consider even if they provide overall superior product/service.
Companies like IBM, Boeing & Airbus are doing phenomenal success in both the public and private sector.
Both Seimens and Alstrom have an office here in Japan for more than 50 years and they both have good relationship with governmental entities.
Don't give me that bull that Japan is protectionist.
It's their products that failed the test not the system.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 02:01 AM   #186
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http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2009/1/17/15715/3557
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 03:08 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Oh boy, just two signboards as proof that the whole Japanese society is protectionist.
The first one your not even sure if it was the exact wording and the second one is probably 20~30 years old.
Perhaps, those were bad examples, but I think perhaps you missed the point. These signs exist partially because of the way business works in Japan. They don't necessarily point to protectionism. They are merely an example which anyone can understand.

You must know this if you live in Japan, especially if you work in Japan. Actually, do you live/work in Japan?
Quote:
Look, foreign companies would probably meet some resistance but if their product including after service were superior than the Japanese then they will have no problem in winning.
Depends who sets the criteria as to what exactly "Superior" means.

As I'm sure you know Japanese business (along with other Asian nations) work differently than Euro businesses. In Japan, business relationships are made and kept through trust, and not always the better/cheaper product. Through working together and hard work, they often make great products. Japan doesn't have a lot of innovations, it has a lot of improvements. Take a product and use Japan's cultural strengths (harmony in the workforce, putting the group over the individual, a thirst for absolute perfection) to improve the product.
Quote:
If they didn't they can take it to court.
That is how it works but you insist that Japan would not consider even if they provide overall superior product/service.
I'm not insisting, I'm merely stating that things are different in Japan. By court, I assume you mean "Japanese court"?
Quote:
Companies like IBM, Boeing & Airbus are doing phenomenal success in both the public and private sector.
Companies in which there is no direct Japanese competition.
Quote:
Both Seimens and Alstrom have an office here in Japan for more than 50 years and they both have good relationship with governmental entities.
Don't give me that bull that Japan is protectionist.
It's their products that failed the test not the system.
Who writes the criteria for the test?

Let's be honest here. If China built a train system that was superior in every way to the Japanese system, do you honestly think that China would be able to sell it to Japan? Can you honestly, with a straight face say that you can see it happening?

Even if it exceeds ALL the criteria, there will be someone who stands up and says, well, it's a great system, but it just doesn't suit the Japanese criteria of (add new criteria here).

As I said before, being a protectionist country isn't necessarily a bad thing. It keeps Japanese companies busy and they are able to create niches for products that suit Japanese sensibilities.

Trust me on this one. I love Japan, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.

It's a very common feeling among many Japanese that Japan is unique, and has unique circumstances and so those needs can only be met by Japanese people/companies. Not all feel this way, but in general it's pervasive enough to affect business practices.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 03:41 AM   #188
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@bluemeansgo

I live and work here in Japan working with various foreign company. I know what happens.
In terms of overall service.
It's as the article gramercy supplied, if the companies are not ready to invest developing repair shops on site, with trained maintanace personnel that can speak fluent Japanese and answer to any questions that JR may have, ready to use parts for back up so it does not sit in shop for two weeks and still be economically cheaper then the Japanese counterparts then yes they will win.
Hitachi, when they did the bidding for the Javelin they met those criteria as well as for it's high product performance.
I don't see Seimens or Alstrom make those kind of commitment here in Japan and they sure do not meet product criteria JR imposes.
It's not just price, it not just product performance it's overall service that really comes to play.
Even if there is a product that meets all of JR's requirements that is cheaper it still will not be selected if takes two weeks to fix the damn thing when it breaks down since it will cost JR more in loss of revenue.

By the way IBM has fierce competition with Japanese Hi-tech companies like Fujitsu, NEC, and/or Hitachi.
Boeing and Airbus has cometition for parts and alot of the Japanese companies acts as sub-contractors for those companies.
Alstrom and Semiens I believe supplies part for electrical generators with again competition like Toshiba, Fuji Heavy Industry, Hitachi, Kawasaki and so on.
So please don't try to patronize me on how open or closed this market is.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 05:06 AM   #189
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I don't mean to patronize you, Tri-ring. I apologize if you feel that way.

I still don't think even you believe that, for example, a Chinese train manufacturer would have a chance in Japan. It just wouldn't happen. You and I both know that. If you asked 100 of your co-workers if they think China would ever make a train system in Japan, I guarantee 99% would feel the same way.

There would simply be too many barriers erected to make it not worth their while.

As a general rule, Japan is more closed than "most" countries. ALL countries have a degree of protectionism. Japan is "more" protectionist than most. I don't know why you care so much, to tell you the truth. I personally don't think it's a bad thing... globalization is not an entirely positive thing.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 06:43 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
As a general rule, Japan is more closed than "most" countries. ALL countries have a degree of protectionism. Japan is "more" protectionist than most. I don't know why you care so much, to tell you the truth. I personally don't think it's a bad thing... globalization is not an entirely positive thing.
You're falling for the same empty cries that most foreign companies make when they were not able to penetrate the Japanese market.

1; Criteria of any product is set by the customer not by the market. Just because a product sells well in the domestic market does not mean it will be an instant success in Japan.

2; After service must be at same level as the Japanese counterparts.

3; Price is not the only decisive factor. A balance of product, after service and price will always be measured.

4; Empty promises brings nothing. Statements like we will produce a service shop IF you purchase doesn't fly. Customers are expecting to see a service shop before buying not the otherway around.

Nokia just moved out of the Japanese mobile phone market. They thought they will become No.1 but was proven wrong because they did not meet 1.
On the otherhand Dyson was able to gain some market share because they got 3 right.
Alot of companies are not able to comply to 4 and fail.

Japan is an exporting nation and a image of protectionism is life threatening to the export industry since the door swings both ways. Japan complies to all WTO regulations and rules and takes it very seriously.

It does not matter if it is Chinese, French or German as long as it satisfy the customers they are all welcome BUT do not expect any special treatment. It's a dog eat dog competition here and only companies that are will to make a long term commitment will be able to enter.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 11:01 AM   #191
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On topic please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Start a thread elsewhere to discuss the japanese market.
This topic is about the Gotthard Base Tunnel.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 08:46 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
It does not matter if it is Chinese, French or German as long as it satisfy the customers they are all welcome BUT do not expect any special treatment. It's a dog eat dog competition here and only companies that are will to make a long term commitment will be able to enter.
If you say so. I guess we all have our own opinions.

Back to the Gotthard base tunnel, One thing I haven't seen, is any 3d fly-through. There was a great one I saw of a new proposed tunnel in Seattle, WA.
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Old January 24th, 2009, 02:23 AM   #193
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Yes, I would agree. In fact I think it's almost a foregone conclusion: the AGV (or TGV Nouvelle Generation, as it was originally named) was developed specifically to face the competition from Siemens' Velaro. I don't think Alstom would have moved from prototype to commercialisation unless they were reliably assured that their product would be superior on a number of these parameters.
I totally agree.
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Old January 24th, 2009, 10:38 AM   #194
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Well, SBB was asked to evaluate several lines, as can seen from this link (I trust it you read German?): http://www.baselland.ch/mit-bud_2003....300441.0.html. As for the rest, there was media reports a few years back that the authorities had come down in favour of the "Lang Niveau" version, but thereafter the tunnel fell out of, first, Bahn2000 and the ZEB, so I suppose the issue just died.
I don't speak German but I can sometimes understand it.

I came back home yesterday, so I haven't read your message until now.

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On topic please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Start a thread elsewhere to discuss the japanese market.
This topic is about the Gotthard Base Tunnel.
Can someone split this topic?
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Old January 25th, 2009, 09:06 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
This is completely bull.
If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
...........The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.
When I was working professonally I dealt also with Japanese businessmen. Woderufl people, who valued the "word of honour" , quality, .. reliability, etc. The price was a secondary factor. However, in my previous post, I quoted an official UE complaint/allegation. For too long the Japanese market was a tad to close up to the global competitors. These attitude is changing. Incidentally, a certain dregree of protectionism is practised in every Country, and it is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes is a good thing. And with this i close the discussion. We are completely OT.
The topic is about "The Gottard Base Tunnel...World Longest Rail Tunnel (57 kms)"

Kind regards,
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Old February 1st, 2009, 02:26 PM   #196
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TBMs are now boring 15 to 20 m per day.

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1

http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user_...rsicht_EST.pdf
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Old February 1st, 2009, 03:27 PM   #197
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the Velaro came out in 2000, the AGV will be at least 10 years younger....and naturally better in some ways (even thought it is french )

what worries me is that siemens doesnt seem to be doing much

by this time they should have either a tilting version, or a double decker, or a faster version or a new version with significant improvements
The new AGV will be the first serie of a nouvelle generation. Then, probably, we will have a 2nd generation of AGVs with more powerful motors, then we might have AGVs of 3rd generation, with tilting capability, and also double decker versions.

Although, at the moment, the critical oscillatory movements of the strengthen French catenary start at around 600-620 km/h and the rail-track lost of contact starts occurring at around 700km/h, with new and more aerodinamic designs it mgith be possibile to further reduce:

a) the air drags , b) the electrical consumption, c) the train weight. The new AGV engines are the first of a new generation of electrical motors.

With regards to weight/power ratio, these new motors outperform all other previous electrical rail motors, and this is only the beginning.

In the not too distant future it might be possibile to have conventional trains running on a few dedicated lines at 400-450 km/h.

This might be the upper limit of the commercially feasibile conventional rail passenger (and AGV versions used for light goods fast trains).

Obviously, these type of speeds will be suited only on long HSLs stretches, and limited to certain Countries.

Nevertheless, lighter articulated trains, with extremely high power/weight ratio (let's say 40kW/ton), with top speeds limited to 300-350 km/h with such power/weight ratio these AGVs will be capable of extremely fast accelerations, similar to that obtainable with the present maglec technology.
It not only the rail, wheel contact that causes air drags, it is mostly the front of the train which causes a lot of problems.. etc, etc,


For short distances, fast acceleration is the most importan factor.

I don't think, that Siemens will simply watch Alstom without doing nothing.
take care,
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Old February 1st, 2009, 06:41 PM   #198
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Please, try to remain in topic.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 07:06 PM   #199
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Wonderful!
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Old February 1st, 2009, 08:40 PM   #200
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Mille grazie for providing this link! I was getting so frustrated with the official "alptransit" site, which usually lets us wait until the 20th or so of each month before telling us what happened the previous month - and which in the last 6 weeks has remained largely mum. Judging from the speed of progress, it looks like the drills are finally out of the disturbance zone that caused them to slow down over the last year?
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