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Old February 1st, 2009, 09:58 PM   #201
Coccodrillo
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The East TBM passed throught the difficult zone without problems. In the '90 there were big fears that this zone was impossible to pass, even newspaper wrote a lot with pessimsitic attidude. In fact, above the tunnel there is a zone of really difficult rock, and first recognistions were exactly there. A 5,5 km pilot tunnel has been bored in about 1993 some 300 m above the tunnels and during its construction it has been flooded by rock and water. Then after repairs this tunnel served as base for surveys which pushed down to the level of the base tunnel. The entrance of the pilot tunnel is near Faido acces tunnel. The West TBM will pas the Piora zone in the next months.
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Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:37 AM   #202
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Quote:
Mitteilung vom 03.02.2009

Stand der Arbeiten am Gotthard und am Ceneri
Am Gotthard und am Ceneri wird gebaut. Am 1. Februar 2009 waren von den insgesamt 153.3 km Tunnel, Schächte und Stollen des Gotthard-Basistunnels 125.4 km oder 81.8 % ausgebrochen. Der Vortrieb im Januar 2009 betrug 1428 m.

Die Arbeiten am Ceneri-Basistunnel laufen auf Hochtouren. Sowohl beim Nordportal in Camorino/Vigana als auch am Südportal in Lugano/Vezia sind Vorarbeiten im Gang. In Sigirino sind nach dem Durchschlag des Fensterstollens die Endarbeiten in der Logistikkaverne im Gang.
By the 1st February 2009, 125,4 out of 153,3 km of tunnels, or 81,8%, have been bored. In January 2009 a total of 1428 m have been excavated.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is also progressing. Here a map of the planned new line south of this tunnel: http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSB...ents/14566.pdf. I think option C is the best, anyway there is no money for this line now.
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Old February 3rd, 2009, 06:28 PM   #203
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Why do you prefer like C? I guess it has some cost advantages going for it, as apparently it uses an existing crossing of the lake. I'd have said - if money were freely available - that the most wholesome solution is TI in that it is very direct and heavily in tunnels.
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Old February 3rd, 2009, 07:03 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
By the 1st February 2009, 125,4 out of 153,3 km of tunnels, or 81,8%, have been bored. In January 2009 a total of 1428 m have been excavated.
wow, on this basis it will be completed in 20 months, or by september 2010 :o
maybe by the London olympics we will have trains running in this thing :o


Quote:
Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is also progressing. Here a map of the planned new line south of this tunnel: http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSB...ents/14566.pdf. I think option C is the best, anyway there is no money for this line now.
oh boy, this just shows that GBT is only the beginning
basically we're talking about a system of tunnels from Basel all the way to Milano

from Basel to Milano its roughly 300 kms, in the distant future, at least half of that will be in tunnels, 250 kph
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Old February 3rd, 2009, 09:48 PM   #205
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wow, on this basis it will be completed in 20 months, or by september 2010 :o
maybe by the London olympics we will have trains running in this thing :o

oh boy, this just shows that GBT is only the beginning
basically we're talking about a system of tunnels from Basel all the way to Milano

from Basel to Milano its roughly 300 kms, in the distant future, at least half of that will be in tunnels, 250 kph
Wow... that's nuts. I thought only Japan does those kind of percentages. Apparently, the Mag-lev they're building is believed to be as much as 80% underground.
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Old February 4th, 2009, 10:18 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Why do you prefer like C? I guess it has some cost advantages going for it, as apparently it uses an existing crossing of the lake. I'd have said - if money were freely available - that the most wholesome solution is TI in that it is very direct and heavily in tunnels.
A2 and TI path cross the lake where it is about 100 m deep. For them they plan apparently a bridge, above or below the water.

B and C cross the lake near an existing dam where depth is low, the option can be an immersed tube.

The lake is up to 288 m deep so there are not a lot of options.

But I don't know more details at the moment.

===============

Otehr plans about northern part of the GBT: http://www.sma-partner.ch/index.php?...epte&Itemid=89
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; February 4th, 2009 at 10:30 AM.
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Old February 4th, 2009, 02:14 PM   #207
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Per arrivare alla caduta del diaframma tra Faido e Sedrun nel tubo ovest mancano ancora 7.3 km, nel tubo est invece 6.4 km. Secondo il programma lavori la caduta del diaframma principale dovrebbe avvenire nel 2011. La messa in esercizio della Galleria di base del San Gottardo è prevista per fine 2017.
Or, in English:

The Piora difficult zone has been excavated without problems also in the eastern tube. There are still 7,3 km in the eastern tube and 6,4 in the western tube to be excavated. The main breakhtrought should be in 2011, the opening of the tunnel by the end of 2017.

Personal opinion: part of the 6,4/7,3 km will be excavated from Sedrun by drill & blast. Remaining distance as found on www.tat-ti.ch is 6,0/6,8 km. The record attained in November 2008 was 700 m in one month. At this utopic speed the breakthrought would be in less than 9 months, or october 2009. Too optimistic. At 450 m per month, it would be in amrch 2010. 2011, with opening in 2017, seems to me still too pessimistic.

Quote:
Communiqué of 02.02.2009

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri

As of February 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 125.4 km, or 81.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in January 2009 was 1428 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.
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Old February 4th, 2009, 04:50 PM   #208
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yea, what the hell would take 6 years? c'mon helvetica, pick up the pace
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Old February 23rd, 2009, 02:55 PM   #209
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From http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/d/gal...otogalerie.php. I love the last one...









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Old March 5th, 2009, 07:52 PM   #210
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Communiqué of 05.03.2009

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of March 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 127.3 km, or 83 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in February 2009 was 1958 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.
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Old March 5th, 2009, 07:59 PM   #211
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woo hoo, on that basis we should prepare for 2010.05 breakthrough (probably later, but still in 2010. woo hoo)
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Old March 11th, 2009, 04:06 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The record attained in November 2008 was 700 m in one month. At this utopic speed the breakthrought would be in less than 9 months, or october 2009. Too optimistic. At 450 m per month, it would be in amrch 2010. 2011, with opening in 2017, seems to me still too pessimistic.
Renzo Simoni, CEO of the AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd, recently said in an interview that the tunnel could maybe be finished a little earlier than expected, which means 2016 (but not sooner). According to him, that scenario, howewer, remains quite improbable.

Here's the original statement:

Liegt eine frühere Inbetriebnahme auch im Bereich des Möglichen?
Simoni: Es ist möglich, dass der Bau einige Monate früher fertiggestellt werden könnte. Das bringt aber nicht viel, weil die betrieblichen Abläufe auf den Fahrplanwechsel ausgerichtet sind.

Könnte es schon für Ende 2016 reichen?
Simoni: Das ist nicht ganz auszuschliessen, aber unwahrscheinlich. Wir sind alle sehr glücklich, wenn es bei Ende 2017 bleibt.


Luzerner Zeitung, 11.01.2009
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Old March 11th, 2009, 12:24 PM   #213
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We will see.

Chi vivrà vedrà.
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Old March 11th, 2009, 06:57 PM   #214
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why 2016? why later? why the pessimism? or are they preparing for a positive PR when they complete it 3 years before that?

I mean at this rate the tunnell will be cut by May 2010, thats next year. Are they expecting some bad rock in the remaining sectors? I dont think that it would/should take 5 more years to install all the necessery equipment, clean out and run some tests..
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Old March 11th, 2009, 09:02 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
why 2016? why later? why the pessimism? or are they preparing for a positive PR when they complete it 3 years before that?

I mean at this rate the tunnell will be cut by May 2010, thats next year. Are they expecting some bad rock in the remaining sectors? I dont think that it would/should take 5 more years to install all the necessery equipment, clean out and run some tests..
I think they mean the whole NEAT project, which also includes the Monte Ceneri tunnel (between Bellinzona and Lugano), maybe also some general infrastructure changings.
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Old March 11th, 2009, 09:27 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
Are they expecting some bad rock in the remaining sectors?
One of the most difficult sections that were planend has been passed without problems: the Piora fault.

I don't know if they expect other difficult zones, probably not, but it is impossible to know what lies exacly more than 2.000 m under the mountain. From Sedrun towards south they are boring 3 m/day by drill&blast and are in a diffucult zone.

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Originally Posted by AVassilios View Post
Monte Ceneri tunnel (between Bellinzona and Lugano), maybe also some general infrastructure changings.
It is too early to say if the Monte Ceneri Base Tunnel will be opened in 2019 as is officially planned or before. They just started construction: 5,9 out of 40,2 km, or 14,6%, have been bored by now for this 15,4 km tunnel. But as of now only intermediate access tunnels and caverns have been built. Boring of the main tunnels will begin next year, probably all by drill&blast (the rock is too difficult for TBMs).

http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/news-de...+%2A+FROM+news

Quote:
Tender documents for the Ceneri base tunnel main contracts are currently being prepared. The contract will include two 8 km sections of drill-and-blast tunnels for the north running main line, while the south running line will include two 1.8 km sections of drill-and-blast and two 4 km sections of TBM-driven tunnels. The completed rail line is expected to open to traffic in 2019.
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Old March 11th, 2009, 09:33 PM   #217
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I think they mean the whole NEAT project, which also includes the Monte Ceneri tunnel (between Bellinzona and Lugano), maybe also some general infrastructure changings.
I wouldn't presume. Please keep in mind that, these days, a new railway construction project falls in 2 1/2 parts: first, the heavy engineering; secondly, the laying of tracks, etc.; thirdly; the cabling, signalling and security works. The first and the third take forever. The one in the middle (and, dare I remind you, unlike in the days of our grandfathers where an army of workers were laying tracks) takes but a few months. The heavy engineering on the not-so-challenging Rhin-Rhone Est HSL here in France is now finished - so.... the line will come into service in 3-4 years' time. Which being so....

...it is entirely conceivable that that monumental Gotthard tunnel will be reach its final breakthrough before end-2010 and the railway like will open 6-7 years later.
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Old March 11th, 2009, 10:17 PM   #218
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i still cant comprehend that, and the reason is a more and more nicely sounding word: China

yes, one could say they have no protests, no democratic processes to deal with or no environmental or for that matter worker safety "problems"....but as you said, europeans will spend 4-6 years AFTER the heavy construction with the signalling/cabels/safety systems/computers/tests

and I dont think the chinese can/do afford to overlook those since they will be running 250-300-330-350 kph trains even more frequently and for longer journeys than the french (lines) do


this whole thing -to me- just screams of bureaucracy run amock with little consideration for speed or even profit (that is: return on the public's money)


Top Gear did a show a few years back in the UK: a local counsil wanted to close down a 1 mile long 5 m wide backroad for a whole weak to resurface it
topgear doubled the nr. of workers and they worked for 24 hrs instead of 5x8, which saved money on wages and only inconvenienced the people for just 1 day

--

This is not strictly on topic, but another thing I cannot comprehend is just how cheap the germans are regarding high speed rail. Yes, I've heard all the arguments about population density, configuration of settlements, focusing on the local communities......but the simple fact is, today Berlin-Warsaw takes exactly as long as Berlin-München, which is a shame considering the polish conditions are supposed to be worse.

And because the germans and the austrians are cheap, there will be no direct eastern-eu - western eu line in the foreseeable future (namely Paris-Budapest-Istanbul), because east of Strassburg only the Karlsruhe-Ulm and the Linz-Wien sections will be 250 kph, but the Ulm-Linz sections will be at or below 160 kph.

Same goes for Nürnberg-Erfurt: the line is half built but they are toying with the idea of 2019. Its a joke! The viaducts are already standing!
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Old March 11th, 2009, 10:49 PM   #219
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...it is entirely conceivable that that monumental Gotthard tunnel will be reach its final breakthrough before end-2010 and the railway like will open 6-7 years later.
The Lötschberg Base Tunnel (shorter, but still 34,6 km, the fouth longest railway tunnel of the world anyway) broke thrrought in April 2005 and has been opened in June 2007 (for passenger by the timetable change of December).

If the Gotthard broke throught in April 2010, this would mean an opening in 2012. Even being pessimistic adding two years, this would be an opening in summer 2014, or 3 and a half years before December 2017.

we must wait spring 2010 to see.
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Old March 13th, 2009, 12:58 PM   #220
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