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Old March 15th, 2009, 07:53 PM   #221
kato2k8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
topgear doubled the nr. of workers and they worked for 24 hrs instead of 5x8, which saved money on wages and only inconvenienced the people for just 1 day
5x8 x n = 40n
24 x 2n = 48n

=> they spent 20% more on wages than originally planned - minimum, more likely one has to account for nighttime bonus, i.e. minimum +10% for 1/3rd of the time, and overtime bonus (12-hour-shifts?).
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Old March 15th, 2009, 08:46 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
5x8 x n = 40n
24 x 2n = 48n

=> they spent 20% more on wages than originally planned - minimum, more likely one has to account for nighttime bonus, i.e. minimum +10% for 1/3rd of the time, and overtime bonus (12-hour-shifts?).
fine

now calculate the amount inconveniencing people for 7 days vs. just 1 day and you are most likely in the green
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Old March 16th, 2009, 04:00 AM   #223
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Weighs up pretty much against the night work done right in front of their houses.
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Old March 16th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #224
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Weighs up pretty much against the night work done right in front of their houses.
it was a rural road, you can probably watch the episode on youtube
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:16 AM   #225
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Document about the northern portal of the Ceneri Base Tunnel:

http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/Ceneri_Nord.pdf

(only in Italian, but with some drawings, 1,3 MB)
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Old March 18th, 2009, 09:45 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The Lötschberg Base Tunnel (shorter, but still 34,6 km, the fouth longest railway tunnel of the world anyway) broke thrrought in April 2005 and has been opened in June 2007 (for passenger by the timetable change of December).
Yes, but wasn't the LBT done almost exclusively through blast tunnelling? (Sprengvortrieb, in German.) I ask because I seem to remember that in this case you cement the tunnel as fast as you progress. Conversely, the drilling of Gotthard leaves a raw tunnel, with considerable extra work to be done before the thing is finished. (Look again at the diagrammes you have posted: a lot of tunnel broken 1-2 years ago is still not green.) Hence, I'd have thought after the final breakthrough they'll probably need another couple of years before the tunnel is ready to even contemplate railway work?
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Old March 21st, 2009, 03:13 PM   #227
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The Faido yard lies on the bottom of a narrow valley, where there is no space and no flat land to store the spoil excavated from the tunnel. That's probably one reason that didn't allowed the use of TBM from Faido towards Sedrun until the breakthrought of the Bodio-Faido section.

As solution for this problem was, ten years ago, planned to build a transport tunnel between Faido and Bodio. From Faido acces tunnel a small (~4 m diameter) tunnel was to be bored towards Bodio. The spoil excavaded by TBM or drill&blast from Faido section would have been transported via this small tunnel to Bodio and there to a depot or loaded on trains.

For this reason the west tunnel between Faido and Bodio can't be finished until the TBMs arrive in Sedrun: it is used to transport spoil and other materials to/from Bodio. Anyway, the definitive lining of the tunnel has been finished (ie the green part).

Description of the first project: http://www.lombardi.ch/publications/...wer.php?ID=373 (PDF, in French)

Other documents: http://www.lombardi.ch/

PS only about 1300 m have still to be bored in the west tube between Erstfeld and Amsteg, and 2500 in the other.
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Old March 21st, 2009, 03:16 PM   #228
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PPS a view of the Faido yard from alptransit.ch:

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Old March 21st, 2009, 09:43 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
...For this reason the west tunnel between Faido and Bodio can't be finished until the TBMs arrive in Sedrun: it is used to transport spoil and other materials to/from Bodio. Anyway, the definitive lining of the tunnel has been finished (ie the green part).

PS only about 1300 m have still to be bored in the west tube between Erstfeld and Amsteg, and 2500 in the other.
Thanks for these clarifications, Coccodrillo. I'd say your PS is almost the most riveting observation: I think we both remember that the contractors lengthened the projected construction time by almost two years with express reference to the delays and political squibbles (in Kanton Uri, of course - bloody "verkrusteten Innerschweizer"!!! ) over the Erstfeld connection. Well... if that's going to be finished BEFORE the Faido-Sedrun link then, surely, at least the additional two years fall away?
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 02:03 AM   #230
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Probably seeing the problems at Erstfeld and the lack of space at Faido they decided do slow down also works at Faido.

From the same PDF, what was planned in october 2000:

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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:26 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Probably seeing the problems at Erstfeld and the lack of space at Faido they decided do slow down also works at Faido.

From the same PDF, what was planned in october 2000: [snipped]
OK, get your point: the breakthrough between Sedrun and Faido was always scheduled to be the last to be achieved. An interesting angle, however, from your diagram is the indication that the heavy engineering works shall be finised two full years after the final breakthrough. If, as people now expect, the breakthrough is achieved some time in 2010 then we can work back from there and say, the tunnel will be ready for track laying, signalling and electrification some time mid-2012. Where does this leave us concerning finalisation?
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 12:55 PM   #232
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- last breakthrought June 2010 (second TBM from Faido)
- end of civil works in June 2012
- end of track laying in June 2014
- opening December 2014, 4 and a half year after the breakthrought

Is it possible? I repeat that the Lötschberg Base Tunnel broke throught in April 2005 and opened in December 2007, 2 and a half years after.

And as far I remember, this year the east tube will see the first rails, maybe only for a short length, as a test. In Erstfeld track laying was expected to take place from 2010.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 09:45 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
- last breakthrought June 2010 (second TBM from Faido)
- end of civil works in June 2012
- end of track laying in June 2014
- opening December 2014, 4 and a half year after the breakthrought
Is it possible?
It is certainly possible. The question is, is it realistic? My office next-door neighbour is a smug Korean from Seoul, who likes to tell me how the freeway between the capital and Pusan was completed in a couple of years by crews of workers - not to mention the CEO - who worked relentlessly around the clock. The CEO lived in his office for two years and went home to his family not once. Young Sang Mok finds it a bit difficult to understand that the guys who purport to be busy renovating our local metro station here in Paris stop working every Friday afternoon. My feeling is, Switzerland is closer to France than to East Asia?

OK, seriously now. I guess it might be possible to open Gotthard within two years after the completion of the heavy engineering, but I still think it would be a hard slug. Take a look at this schedule for the finalisation of LGV-Rhin-Rhone-Est: http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_RR_BE_calendrier.pdf. As you'll see they expect to open slightly less than two years after finishing all the "heavy stuff" (including a test period for the trains) - so far so good. They also, however, count on having almost another two years to do railway equipment work while still finalising the heavy stuff - and THAT, Cocodrillo, I'm not so sure you can do in the middle of a mountain. OK, you cover that base by mentioning that the Swiss tunnelers home to start some railway work in the eastern tunnel in the none-to-distant future. Good luck to them, but... it might yet be a long shot.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #234
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Weekly (every friday) updates of works: http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1

Plan of Faido station: http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user_...9_26032009.pdf (2.7 MB)
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:47 AM   #235
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Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of April 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 129.3 km, or 84 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in March 2009 was 1995 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.

http://new.neat.ch/en/?no_cache=1&cHash=81c81f602d
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 01:02 AM   #236
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great progress, exactly 24 kms remaining, thats a little over 1 year :WOOT:
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 11:20 PM   #237
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We don't know. Now they are boring 2 km/month because the TBMs in Erstfeld are boring fast. But in June they will arrive in Amsteg, then only the two TBMs from Faido (~350 m/month) and the explosive frm Sedrun will continue boring.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:53 AM   #238
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Exactly. And please note that the graphic representations on the NEAT website are not equidistant. To allow visitors to gauge the more spectactular parts of the project, they overrepresent the caverns and underrepresent the "unglamorous" ordinary tunnel pipes. I'd estimate another 7-8 km remain to be drilled between Faido and Sedrun. With a progress of 3-4 km per month this is likely to take another two years. - Following which a non-trivial amount of time will go into converting raw tunnel into the final product.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:46 AM   #239
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Exactly.

From http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1 there are left...
Ancora da scavare fino a Sedrun: 6'053.40m in the western tube
Ancora da scavare fino a Sedrun: 5'163.00m in the eastern tube

This is the distance remaining to the border of the contract. There are another 1-2 km assigned to Sedrun contract.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 07:06 PM   #240
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soo...whats your guesstimate of final breakthrough?
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