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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:10 PM   #321
Coccodrillo
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Quote:
Les idées et les projets doivent être évalués plus dûrement de la
côte économique, au dépit des aspects politiques.
This says that projects should be more carefully studied on their economical side (cost/benefit analysis, etc).

On the contrary, I think that there are too much discussions, and that these endless discussions canceled some very urgent projects, like the second part of the Zimmerberg Base Tunnel. The existing line has about 150 trains per day on a single track, and the conclusion is simple: build more tracks, or renounce to add more trains.

As of Zürich-Gotthard passenger trains, a solution may be to replace the existing hourly regional train Thalwil-Zug by buses, or to eliminate them at all, and use the freed space for intercity trains until the Zimmerberg 2 tunnels opens in 2120.

Freight trains to the Gotthard go via the Bözberg line instead of via the Zimmerberg line. On the map on page 29 of the same PDF is shown as passing neraby BS-LFG-BG-WO-RK-GD.
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 09:33 AM   #322
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On the contrary, I think that there are too much discussions, and that these endless discussions canceled some very urgent projects, like the second part of the Zimmerberg Base Tunnel.
I think you may have misunderstood the author, Cocco. Objecting to the application of "political" rather than "economic" considerations could, at the current Swiss juncture, be read as a criticism of the way parliament punked "Bahn 2000, 2e Etape". (For the uninitiated: a second round of much-trumpeted follow-up investment money dedicated, in principle, to linking up with the main Gotthard line was seized by populist politicians and spent on minor upgrades in their local constituencies.) Surely, Zimmerberg 2 holds up better to economic analysis than line renovations in Eastern and Central Switzerland?
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:04 AM   #323
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I think that the projects incldued in Rail 2000 II part (also known as ZEB) are all important, but that they are not enough.

On page 25 on this document you can find the cost of other planned extensions:

http://www.utp.ch/Futur_developpemen...iaire_ZEB.html

These extensions would cost about 8 billion CHF and partly profit also to the Gotthard Base Tunnel (for about 3,5 billions).

The other acces lines to the GBT would cost 5 to 10 billions more but in my opinion they are not all urgent (the planned new Arth Goldau-Erstfeld line would cost 2 to 3 billions, but you can free capacity for freight trains also eliminating regional services, even if this is unpopular). Instead doubling the track of the Luino line is very urgent (or building a new parallel line).
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:33 AM   #324
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Thanks for this clarification. I had heard of ZEB of course, but (erroneously) assumed that this was a separate undtertaking to be commenced after Rail 2000 II. I now understand from your posting that was was Rail 2000 II has now become the first phase of ZEB.

I note that - having been once burnt - UTP is now very careful to recommend only projects that serve as connections from the rest of Switzerland to the NEAT lines. (An earlier controversy arose about intentions to use earlier tranches of such funds to upgrade the Gotthard axis itself.) Even the prospective Zimmerberg 2 is portrayed as part of an upgraded link between Zurich and Luzern. Well, it would surely be useful in this context as well, but...
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 12:04 PM   #325
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Rail 2000 first part = a group of improvements here and there, opened by stages until december 2004
Rail 2000 second part = ZEB/SIF = other improvements
Rail 2000 third part = ZEB 2/SIF 2 = Rail 2030 = sometimes known as "extensions" of the ZEB project

The Zimmerberg base tunnel was initially planned to be used also by freight trains leading to Zurich/Schaffhausen. The first part of this tunnel was financed by Rail 2000, the second part by AlpTransit. Now freight trains run via Wohlen (mainly because the existing Zimmerberg tunnel is single track and congested...). The ZBT 2 will be used for both passenger lines, Zürich-Luzern and Zürich-Gotthard, and maybe for freight trains.
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM   #326
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wow, you guys really ran with the question

methinks it will be awesome when the train enters a tunnel just south of chiasso and comes out of it in downtown Zürich (ok, it will come to the surface near Lugano, Bellinzona and Bodio)
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 03:49 PM   #327
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This is not for tomorrow
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 10:35 PM   #328
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Quote:
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This is not for tomorrow

did they insert the tbms using the south potals of bodio or using the service tunnel on the left side of the portals

one other question, im planning to take a guided tour of the tunnel (bodio, then inside the faido section) does anyone know how far is the entrance of the service tunnel in faido from the actual tunnel?
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:03 PM   #329
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The TBM were assembled inside the mountain via the tunnel on the right (near the yellow crane). It is 1,2 km long and it is now separated from the main tunnels by a wall, because it is now useless. It has been built because the two main tunnels run throught a section of difficult rock and sediments. The access tunnel has been built to shorten construction time: from the end of this tunnels boring started northwards with the two TBM, and southwards with explosive and other methods.

The Faido access tunnel is about 14 km from the Bodio portal, and the access tunnel itself is 2,6 km long.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM   #330
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The TBM were assembled inside the mountain via the tunnel on the right (near the yellow crane). It is 1,2 km long and it is now separated from the main tunnels by a wall, because it is now useless. It has been built because the two main tunnels run throught a section of difficult rock and sediments. The access tunnel has been built to shorten construction time: from the end of this tunnels boring started northwards with the two TBM, and southwards with explosive and other methods.

The Faido access tunnel is about 14 km from the Bodio portal, and the access tunnel itself is 2,6 km long.
thanks a lot, so from the serivce entrance tunnel in faido to the two railway tunnels there are 2,6km this i what you mean?

and the only remaning section to bore is part of the faido-sedrun section right?
will it be done with dynamite or tbms? i have a doubt about why if the tunnels are almost completed they will still take 8 years to finish all the work?
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:42 PM   #331
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thanks a lot, so from the serivce entrance tunnel in faido to the two railway tunnels there are 2,6km this i what you mean?
Yes. But don't worry, it's a two lane road, you will be taken into the tunnel by a small bus

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and the only remaning section to bore is part of the faido-sedrun section right?
Yes. TBM from the south (~3.5 km), drill&blast from the north (~1 km).

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i have a doubt about why if the tunnels are almost completed they will still take 8 years to finish all the work?
I don't know! They want maybe consider some delay, like still unknown geological problems. I think that the "2017" after zhe last breakthrought will becole "2015".
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:55 PM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes. But don't worry, it's a two lane road, you will be taken into the tunnel by a small bus



Yes. TBM from the south (~3.5 km), drill&blast from the north (~1 km).



I don't know! They want maybe consider some delay, like still unknown geological problems. I think that the "2017" after zhe last breakthrought will becole "2015".
thanks Croc, so there only just a little remaining for the tunnel to be totally complete right? Have you taken the tour,is it interesting?
One very last question, when did they start boring i mean in which year?
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 01:44 PM   #333
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The first TBM started boring on 7th January 2003 in Bodio and will reach Sedrun next year: 8 years for 30 km.

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=110&L=1

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=116&L=1

I took the tours on open days (organized about one or two times a year on different construction sites), they are really interesting. But tours can be organized also at other times, if there is a sufficient number of visitors.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 02:56 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The first TBM started boring on 7th January 2003 in Bodio and will reach Sedrun next year: 8 years for 30 km.

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=110&L=1

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=116&L=1

I took the tours on open days (organized about one or two times a year on different construction sites), they are really interesting. But tours can be organized also at other times, if there is a sufficient number of visitors.

so in total 4 tbms , 2 north bound and 2 south bound + the dynamite ?
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 03:22 PM   #335
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Yes.

From the south, they bored Bodio then Faido sections.

From the north, Amsteg then Erstfeld (in that order).

Three other TBMs were used: one for an exploratory tunnel in Faido (5,5 km), one for a service tunnel in Bodio (3,2 km), one for the second access tunnel for the Ceneri (2,3 km). Another TBM may be used at the Ceneri (2x4 km).
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 03:48 PM   #336
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Quote:
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Yes.

From the south, they bored Bodio then Faido sections.

From the north, Amsteg then Erstfeld (in that order).

Three other TBMs were used: one for an exploratory tunnel in Faido (5,5 km), one for a service tunnel in Bodio (3,2 km), one for the second access tunnel for the Ceneri (2,3 km). Another TBM may be used at the Ceneri (2x4 km).

thank you very much, do you know anything about the Porta Alpina station, have they put the project on hold, or eventually it will be an operation station?

I doubt it as the only way of access is using lifts, i wonder in the Sedrun section where the ventilation tunnel is located, do you have any pictures of the actual tunnel going from the working plaza to the shaft area? as the webcams on the alpinetransit site dont update so often



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyhloe94qEM
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 04:25 PM   #337
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Porta Alpina project has been canceled, even if provision has been made so that it could be built in future (some caverns have been built to host services, like waiting rooms for passengers).

There are two vertical shaft in Sedrun: one for maintenance, safety and if Porta Alpina will be built also for passengers, and one for ventilation only. I don't have photos riht now, but they may be on the websites of the builders: http://www.alptransit.ch/it/links/imprese/

At the top of the shaft there are two tunnels: one leads to Sedrun, is 1 km long and can be used by trucks and service trains, another is an inclined shaft for ventilation only. This one ends in a valley of the opposite side of the mountain than Sedrun.

The ventilation shaft is the triangle near B on this map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...04801&t=h&z=18

"A" is the access tunnel.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 04:39 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Porta Alpina project has been canceled, even if provision has been made so that it could be built in future (some caverns have been built to host services, like waiting rooms for passengers).

There are two vertical shaft in Sedrun: one for maintenance, safety and if Porta Alpina will be built also for passengers, and one for ventilation only. I don't have photos riht now, but they may be on the websites of the builders: http://www.alptransit.ch/it/links/imprese/

At the top of the shaft there are two tunnels: one leads to Sedrun, is 1 km long and can be used by trucks and service trains, another is an inclined shaft for ventilation only. This one ends in a valley of the opposite side of the mountain than Sedrun.

The ventilation shaft is the triangle near B on this map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...04801&t=h&z=18

"A" is the access tunnel.

thanks a lot croc, so the ventilation chamber hasnt been built yet on the mountain?

so there are actual service trains that go from the entrance "A" to the actual top of the shafts? or just trains running below in the tunnels?

do you think there is a chance to visit sedrun?
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 04:54 PM   #339
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There isn't a "ventilation chamber", but a railway/road tunnel from A to the shafts, a ventilation tunnel partly inclined (by about 45°) from the shafts to B, and two vertical shafts.

Trains enter from A, board a lift in shaft 1 (shaft 2 is only for ventilation), then exit in a cavern 800 m below. About 2x6 km of main tunnels have been built from here, without other access until the boring reached Amsteg section.

There has been an open day this summer, the second since the construction started, but I don't know if and when there will be another occasion. I think yes, but not soon.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:10 PM   #340
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Quote:
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There isn't a "ventilation chamber", but a railway/road tunnel from A to the shafts, a ventilation tunnel partly inclined (by about 45°) from the shafts to B, and two vertical shafts.

Trains enter from A, board a lift in shaft 1 (shaft 2 is only for ventilation), then exit in a cavern 800 m below. About 2x6 km of main tunnels have been built from here, without other access until the boring reached Amsteg section.

There has been an open day this summer, the second since the construction started, but I don't know if and when there will be another occasion. I think yes, but not soon.

wow amazing that those service trains reach the bottom, wonder what the temperature is like down there..amazingly hot i suppose

is the geological consitency downthere pure rock?


so basically going south from sedrun the tunnels are still to bore for about 3km and 1km and going north its all clear and bored till erstfeld?

so the "B" spot the triangle the actual intake?
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