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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:48 PM   #341
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wow amazing that those service trains reach the bottom, wonder what the temperature is like down there..amazingly hot i suppose
It can reach 35°-40°, but it is lowered by ventilation.

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is the geological consitency downthere pure rock?
Yes. Details of types of rock can be found on www.alptransit.ch website.

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so basically going south from sedrun the tunnels are still to bore for about 3km and 1km and going north its all clear and bored till erstfeld?
Sedrun > north: finished
Sedrun > south: 1 km by drill&blast
Faido > north: 3,5 km by TBM

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so the "B" spot the triangle the actual intake?
It is the portal of the ventilation shaft. I think that air in taken from there, and rejected via the other tunnel.
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Old November 25th, 2009, 01:21 AM   #342
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why is there a small section immediatly after the Northportal still not excavated?
http://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-o...tion-erstfeld/
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Old November 25th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #343
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what about Zimmerberg? is that coming anytime soon?
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Old November 25th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #344
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why is there a small section immediatly after the Northportal still not excavated?
Probably because it's done in surface mining.
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Old November 25th, 2009, 02:37 PM   #345
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that little section made me wonder: where will the breakthrough be? there or in the middle of the mountain?
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Old November 25th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #346
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why is there a small section immediatly after the Northportal still not excavated?
http://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-o...tion-erstfeld/
It is an artificial tunnel. It isn't excavated but built on the open air on the side of the mountain and it will later be covered.

http://www.alptransit.ch/en/photo-ga...nnel/erstfeld/

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what about Zimmerberg? is that coming anytime soon?
No
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Old November 25th, 2009, 08:17 PM   #347
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ah, thx

shame on zimmerberg
was it SVP and Blocher?
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Old November 25th, 2009, 09:12 PM   #348
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SVP/UDC is a political party and Bocher was his leader (he has resigned), usually against immigrants, foreign people, railways, the EU, and public expenditure in general. It is against all, in fact...
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Old November 25th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
SVP/UDC is a political party and Bocher was his leader (he has resigned), usually against immigrants, foreign people, railways, the EU, and public expenditure in general. It is against all, in fact...
I respect your knowledge on the Neat, but it is not right now to start with the ever so popular SVP bashing in this thread.
One of the fathers or the NEAT was in fact Mr. Ogi, a member of this party.
Lets not forget that Switzerland is building here a fantastic project costing dozends of billions WITHOUT any assistance from Europe.
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Old November 25th, 2009, 09:42 PM   #350
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I respect your knowledge on the Neat, but it is not right now to start with the ever so popular SVP bashing in this thread.
One of the fathers or the NEAT was in fact Mr. Ogi, a member of this party.
Lets not forget that Switzerland is building here a fantastic project costing dozends of billions WITHOUT any assistance from Europe.
except for the tax imposed on trucks, a majority of which are non-swiss
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Old November 26th, 2009, 10:48 AM   #351
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except for the tax imposed on trucks, a majority of which are non-swiss
I heavily doubt that.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #352
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Well, there's tax and there's tax. As I recall it (and I lived in Basle in those years...) NEAT came about largely because of a stand-off between the Swiss and their neighbours. Switzerland imposed a ban on particularly heavy trucks. - A non-discriminatory ban, which applied to Swiss truckers as well, but it was seen as a deep blow on the trucking industries of Italy and Germany who depended heavily on the transit freight between North Italy and the Rhine Valley through the Alps. "What is the alternative to road haulage?", the neighbours asked. "Rail transport" answered the Swiss and, by logical extension of that thought, found themselves pushed down the road of massively improving the Alpine rail transit freight. The price is to be paid partly through the said tax (which may or may not be borne mainly by foreigners) AND THEN through the juicy rail charges the truckers pay to have their 18-wheelers pulled through Switzerland. This latter "tax" is to my knowledge payed almost exclusively by foreigners.

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I respect your knowledge on the Neat, but it is not right now to start with the ever so popular SVP bashing in this thread. One of the fathers or the NEAT was in fact Mr. Ogi, a member of this party.
Adolph Ogi was, I remind you, constantly in trouble with his own party for being too centrist. Only his huge popularity as a former skiing champion kept saving him. The fact that his powerbase was Frutigen could also have something to do with his great enthousiasm for NEAT.

I agree that there's not much point in bashing SVP as such, but I would like to bash part of their hinterland - namely an army of elderly, conservative rural hilbillies who hold that all shall remain as it is and become as it was. The first time the issue of a Wisenberg tunnel (base tunnel through the Jura mountains) was broached a roar of protest went up from the then-vocatious Schweizer Demokraten in Baselland and Soloturn. It was SCANDALOUS that anyone would disfigure their beautiful hills with ugly railroads, etc. etc. etc. Most of these old diehards totally missed the point that that tunnel was about getting the freight trains OUT of the Jura. - And, without putting too fine a point on it, the SVP has inherited a lot of that constituency.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #353
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Well, there's tax and there's tax. As I recall it (and I lived in Basle in those years...) NEAT came about largely because of a stand-off between the Swiss and their neighbours. Switzerland imposed a ban on particularly heavy trucks.
Sorry, but that's a strange kind of reconstruction of logic. The truck tax and the NEAT are not based on foreign policy, they are based on the Green movement for more environmentally-friendly transportation which started to gain momentum in the 70-ies. Of course, foreign policy was an important factor in supporting these environmental goals because road traffic is not only domestic, and especially because at that time neighbouring countries were not so advanced yet in these environmental areas (which is not so much the case anymore today).

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Adolph Ogi was, I remind you, constantly in trouble with his own party for being too centrist. Only his huge popularity as a former skiing champion kept saving him.
Nearly every Bundesrat in history has been accused by its own party to be "too centrist" because that's the inherent difference between a member of government and a member of parliament. The first needs to implement the will of the majority of the population, the latter needs to gain a distinctive political profile and find a political niche.

Ogi was never a skiing champion, btw. Only president of the skiing federation.

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The fact that his powerbase was Frutigen could also have something to do with his great enthousiasm for NEAT.
That's surely the case. Only his home is Kandersteg, not Frutigen, but it's closeby.

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I agree that there's not much point in bashing SVP as such, but I would like to bash part of their hinterland - namely an army of elderly, conservative rural hilbillies who hold that all shall remain as it is and become as it was.
It is good that there are also conservative, green and right forces in a country.

Why attacking other people personally if they have a different political opionion? It would be better to fight with good arguments. These people are not less intelligent than you. They just have another perspective and other life experiences which are not less valuable and less true than yours.

Most of the time also the finances play an important part in such political struggles. I am a big fan of public transport and the child in me would like every big project to be realised as soon as possible. At the same time I am glad that there also more grown-up people in the political arena who are taking on the unpopular role to say "no" from time to time because they care about our children and grandchildren for them not having to pay a huge amount of debt that we are making for them. They should have some means left to also realise their own projects and not only pay dues and interests for our generation's projects.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 03:22 PM   #354
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Well, there's tax and there's tax. As I recall it (and I lived in Basle in those years...) NEAT came about largely because of a stand-off between the Swiss and their neighbours. Switzerland imposed a ban on particularly heavy trucks. - A non-discriminatory ban, which applied to Swiss truckers as well, but it was seen as a deep blow on the trucking industries of Italy and Germany who depended heavily on the transit freight between North Italy and the Rhine Valley through the Alps.
Switzerland raised the limit for trucks from 28t to 40t which is the EU standard. This was part of the Bilaterals 1 agreement.
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"What is the alternative to road haulage?", the neighbours asked. "Rail transport" answered the Swiss and, by logical extension of that thought, found themselves pushed down the road of massively improving the Alpine rail transit freight. The price is to be paid partly through the said tax (which may or may not be borne mainly by foreigners) AND THEN through the juicy rail charges the truckers pay to have their 18-wheelers pulled through Switzerland. This latter "tax" is to my knowledge payed almost exclusively by foreigners.
It's the peoples whish that alpine transit traffic should be done by train, the majority of the people voted yes on the alpeninitative: http://www.alpine-initiative.ch/e/Home.asp

The charges you pay to get your track pulled through on the trains only pay of the cost for this service. So that's hardly a tax. The LSVA is a normal tax that is paid by any truck similar to the mount in other countries.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 03:32 PM   #355
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I dont know what your problem is.

If the swiss want funds from the EU budget, maybe they should enter the EU. Oh wait, they dont want that. Well then..
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Old November 26th, 2009, 04:24 PM   #356
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except for the tax imposed on trucks, a majority of which are non-swiss
The tax is based on the tonnage of the truck and the distance it covers. The tax on trucks is paid by all trucks, so, considering also the other sources of money, the AlpTransit project is paid only for a small part by foreign trucks. I don't have precise figures, but I think that only 15 to 20% of money come from european trucks, and still, not directly from the European Union.

About the UDC/SVP: I don't like some positions of that party. Obviously this doesn't mean that all its ideas and all its politicians are stupid. But I don't want to start a political war.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #357
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I dont know what your problem is.
I just wanted to clarify, that most of the LSVA is paid by Swiss thats all.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 08:08 PM   #358
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I just wanted to clarify, that most of the LSVA is paid by Swiss thats all.
Allright then
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Old November 26th, 2009, 09:29 PM   #359
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Switzerland raised the limit for trucks from 28t to 40t which is the EU standard. This was part of the Bilaterals 1 agreement.
Mmwell, yes. But, for my general health and happiness, wasn't it part of the deal that the Eidsgenossen could continue levying abusive taxes and fees on foriegn lorries? I thought it was, though - having by then left CH - I could be mistaken.

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It's the peoples whish that alpine transit traffic should be done by train, the majority of the people voted yes on the alpeninitative.
So what? I mean... I had this discussion with my Swiss live-in girlfriend some 15 years ago. She was apalled that neighbouring countries might want to penalise Switzerland for something that had been "de-mo-cra-ti-cal-ly decided - BY re-fe-ren-dum". But... just to take a flippant example, the outrageous foreign policies of ancient Athens were also decided upon by referendum. Foreigners would - in my opinion - have the right to disagree and bring harsh retributions to bear not on politicians (who would, well..., be innocent) but on individual citizens who and by their votes contributed to an outcome that the neighbouring countries did not like. If the Swiss voted against 40 tonners in the Urnertal then, in my view, the French and the Italians did very, very well to take actions to hurt ordinary Swiss citizens as well as they possibly could. This is, again in my view, just punishment to Innerschweitzer who thought their local magouilles were more important than the greater European reality.

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That's surely the case. Only his [Ogi's] home is Kandersteg, not Frutigen, but it's closeby.
Railcity, ich frage mich ob wir die selbe Sprache sprechen. (I ask myself if we speak the same language.) I was mentioning this in the context of Doelf Ogi's political activity and - as I should think you know - Kandersteg is part of the the political consituency ("Amtsbezirk") of Frutigen. - This I found out about when in my youth I studied the voting results from the EWR-Abstimmung (EEA vote) which tipped spectacularly against the "Altbundesrat" in, yes, Frutigen.

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It is good that there are also conservative, green and right forces in a country.

Why attacking other people personally if they have a different political opionion? It would be better to fight with good arguments. These people are not less intelligent than you. They just have another perspective and other life experiences which are not less valuable and less true than yours.
It is certainly good to have people with different political directions in a country. For the record: I vote conservative in my native Denmark, although I must admit that the Danish conservative party is to the left of both LDP and Bill Clinton - and our rightwing xenophobic "Dansk Folkeparti" is to the left of SVP. I do not, however...

...subscribe to the notion that the political attitudes of person X can be - by definition - just as good as those of person Y. 15 years in Paris have convinced me that the value that can be attached to a person's political judgment depends in large measure on his/her educational attainment. If they have not made a "grande ecole" then "faut se mefier de ces especes de petits cons".
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Old November 26th, 2009, 09:35 PM   #360
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Mmwell, yes. But, for my general health and happiness, wasn't it part of the deal that the Eidsgenossen could continue levying abusive taxes and fees on foriegn lorries?
Foreign lorries pay excactly the same taxes (even down to the single Rappen) as the Swiss lorries.
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If the Swiss voted against 40 tonners in the Urnertal then, in my view, the French and the Italians did very, very well to take actions to hurt ordinary Swiss citizens as well as they possibly could.
Other countries should decide what kind of trucks are allowed on our streets. Sorry that is in no way conform to the souveregnity of our nation, acutally any nation recognized by UN charta.
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