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Old November 26th, 2009, 10:46 PM   #361
hans280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Other countries should decide what kind of trucks are allowed on our streets. Sorry that is in no way conform to the souveregnity of our nation, acutally any nation recognized by UN charta.
Those UN charta also allow nations to decide about their own anti-trust policy, their own passport practices, etc. etc. However, such countries as Germany, Austria, Italy and France (all the neighbours of CH in other words, except for tiny FL) have all agreed to forfeit those sovereign privilieges in the interest of European cohesion. This doesn't mean that the Eidsgenossenschaft is wrong, obviously. But, it does mean that the Swiss are... (well ) die Letzten, die Allerletzten... if they want to maintain sovereignty over transport policy which - in 27 other European countries - has been pooled in Brussels.
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Old November 27th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #362
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So what? I mean... I had this discussion with my Swiss live-in girlfriend some 15 years ago. She was apalled that neighbouring countries might want to penalise Switzerland for something that had been "de-mo-cra-ti-cal-ly decided - BY re-fe-ren-dum". But... just to take a flippant example, the outrageous foreign policies of ancient Athens were also decided upon by referendum. Foreigners would - in my opinion - have the right to disagree and bring harsh retributions to bear not on politicians (who would, well..., be innocent) but on individual citizens who and by their votes contributed to an outcome that the neighbouring countries did not like. If the Swiss voted against 40 tonners in the Urnertal then, in my view, the French and the Italians did very, very well to take actions to hurt ordinary Swiss citizens as well as they possibly could. This is, again in my view, just punishment to Innerschweitzer who thought their local magouilles were more important than the greater European reality.
Strange kind of power rhetoric. Reminds me somehow of the times before 1st World War with the childish power struggle of the dynasties. It would never come to my mind to "punish Italian people" for the taxes they ask on their street on their own territory. That's their own decision. Who am I to judge it?

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Railcity, ich frage mich ob wir die selbe Sprache sprechen. (I ask myself if we speak the same language.) I was mentioning this in the context of Doelf Ogi's political activity and - as I should think you know - Kandersteg is part of the the political consituency ("Amtsbezirk") of Frutigen. - This I found out about when in my youth I studied the voting results from the EWR-Abstimmung (EEA vote) which tipped spectacularly against the "Altbundesrat" in, yes, Frutigen.
Ah, so it's about the statistics you read. Amtsbezirke in the Canton of Berne didn't have a big importance and actually they don't exist anymore today.

Why spectacularly? The opinion of a politician never had an influence on what people were voting in the home region of that politician.

In contrary. People from your home region know you personally, so it's more difficult to fool these people with nice words than people not from your home region.

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It is certainly good to have people with different political directions in a country. For the record: I vote conservative in my native Denmark, although I must admit that the Danish conservative party is to the left of both LDP and Bill Clinton - and our rightwing xenophobic "Dansk Folkeparti" is to the left of SVP.
Well, and SVP is in terms of eg. migration policy less conservative than the German SPD of Schröder or the Italian Unione of Prodi during their government spells.

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I do not, however......subscribe to the notion that the political attitudes of person X can be - by definition - just as good as those of person Y. 15 years in Paris have convinced me that the value that can be attached to a person's political judgment depends in large measure on his/her educational attainment. If they have not made a "grande ecole" then "faut se mefier de ces especes de petits cons".
Not really encouraging. I'm an academic myself and academics are surely the most brainwashed people (while often not aware of it). The more you know, the less you know. It's these academics with missing understanding of the reality that have been pushing Europe from catastrophy to catastrophy in the past.
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Old November 27th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #363
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Quote:
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Strange kind of power rhetoric. Reminds me somehow of the times before 1st World War with the childish power struggle of the dynasties. It would never come to my mind to "punish Italian people" for the taxes they ask on their street on their own territory. That's their own decision. Who am I to judge it?
I think you're mistaken. I'm working in the thick of the international political economy, and I can assure you that even today states can be extremely vindictive. One of the more ridiculous examples is the Bush administration pulling out all the stoppers to see "loyal London" rather than "treacherous Paris" win the 2012 Olympics in what amounted to a tit for tat over France's objections to the Iraq invasion.

I further assure you that if - purely as an example - Portugal were to prevent, or slap heavy taxes on, Spanish road access to Portuguese deep sea ports then there would be a blistering retribution from Madrid aimed at hurting Portuguese interests in other, and perhaps unrelated, policy areas. My problem with your argument (which was also the argument of my "ex") is, why should this be any different just because the decision that hurts the neighbouring country was made by referendum? The Swiss sometimes talk about the popular vote as if this lifts a decision to a different moral level, but from the perspective of a neighbouring country this will often not be the case.

States routinely lash out, for example, at the business groups in other countries that have lobbied particularly strongly for "offending legislation". Recent examples include US tariffs on white wines (aimed at hurting the French wine industry) and EU tariffs on motorbikes (aimed at making Bush lose the public vote in Wisconsin by hurting Harley-Davidson). I admit it would be more unusual to aim retributions at individuals of a given nationality, but if it is they who have triggered the dissatisfaction in the neighbouring country, whyever not?

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Not really encouraging. I'm an academic myself and academics are surely the most brainwashed people (while often not aware of it).
C'mon, I was cracking a joke to my own cost, by exacerbating my supposedly elitist Parisian ways. But, well.... I should have known from painful past experience that "die Deutschschweitzer" have a big problem with comprehending self irony.
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Old November 27th, 2009, 10:01 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Foreign lorries pay excactly the same taxes (even down to the single Rappen) as the Swiss lorries.
From Basel to Chiasso a truck pays 200 € on average. Crossing the Fréjus or Mont Blanc tunnels costs 300 € in tolls (also considering nearby motorways), crossing the Brenner should be around 100 €.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 07:07 PM   #365
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The opening date has been anticipated from December to june 2017. A new opening date will be defined next June (2010).
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Old November 28th, 2009, 07:10 PM   #366
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im hoping early 2016
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 02:00 PM   #367
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from alptransit.ch:
As of December 1, 2009, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 141.28 km, or 93 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in November 2009 was 1311 m.

In the north portal of the Ceneri Base Tunnel at Vigana, driving under the A2 motorway continues. At Sigirino, the north-west drives in the caverna operativa (CAOP) are complete. In the south-west tunnel, driving continues with good advance rates. During September, work began on rerouting the Swiss Federal Railway line at Vezia.
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 02:37 PM   #368
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summer 2010
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 09:31 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The opening date has been anticipated from December to june 2017. A new opening date will be defined next June (2010).
Good news!
Source?
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Old December 4th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #370
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I really hope after Swiss are satisfied with they brand-new railway tunnel, which is expected to divert freight from highways, they start reconsidering digging a second St. Gottard road bore - and so the Italians and French should start studying a second bore either in Fréjus or Mont Blanc.
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Old December 4th, 2009, 05:33 PM   #371
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The plans for a railway base tunnel between southern France and northwestern Italy are already very progressed. You can take a look here: http://www.lyon-turin.info/.

The main reason real works haven't started yet, as far as I know, is that the Italians have been held up by public resistance in the affected areas west of Turin. Seeing as it was the Italian government who initially pushed the strongest for this railway link, the French have been content to sit back and say "dear neighbours, come back when you've decided".
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Old December 4th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #372
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The railroadtrack will be ready in 2023.
Costs: €7.310.000.000
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Old December 5th, 2009, 01:40 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luganese1980 View Post
Good news!
Source?
A conference made by swiss and italian representatives held in Malpensa Airport last friday (27th November). At the same time they promised to restore the hourly service between Bellinzona, Lugano, Como and Milano before 2013, but if possible in 2011 (there were one train per hour until December 2008, but next week service will be reduced to one train every two hours absolutely non-competitive considering than car is often faster than train in this case).

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I really hope after Swiss are satisfied with they brand-new railway tunnel, which is expected to divert freight from highways, they start reconsidering digging a second St. Gottard road bore.
If politics manage to reach what they promised (no more than 650.000 throught the four swiss transalpine main roads, 80% of them throught the Gotthard), then maybe a second tube could be built...if financed. No infrastructure can be built in Switzerland if not 100% financed, and no infrastructure is built without some decades of discussions and cost-benefit analysis. And in the case of the Gotthard road tunnel the argument is also that there are queues only in summer, but, as other motorways are more congested throught the year, money should be used there instead of the Gotthard.

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And so the Italians and French should start studying a second bore either in Fréjus or Mont Blanc.
AADT of the two Italy-France tunnels is very low, about 5.000 (varying between 4.000 and 6.000 in summer). There is sometimes in summer a queue of about 1 to 2 hours at the Mont Blanc, but not very often. I don't think they really need a second tube...
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Old December 5th, 2009, 01:25 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't think they really need a second tube...
Not at those insane prices.
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Old December 5th, 2009, 02:25 PM   #375
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With tolls at € 30, they should be able to finance it. However, I usually manage to avoid queues at Mont. Blanc in summer taking a "detour" through St. Bernard Tunnel. Many italians who drive yearly to France and don't live in the area ignore this third very convenient bore.
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Old December 5th, 2009, 04:38 PM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A conference made by swiss and italian representatives held in Malpensa Airport last friday (27th November).
Grazie!
I've seen the TV report.
There was also a discussion between Mariolini and Raffaele Cattaneo...

Non mancano perplessità, come quelle espresse dalla municipale luganese Nicoletta Mariolini. Quest'ultima si è detta preoccupata del deterioramento dei collegamenti tra Ticino e Milano ed ha pure espresso dubbi "per i tempi di percorrenza sempre più lunghi e per il prospettato aumento delle tariffe del 40-45%".

Una frecciata che ha procato la reazione dell'assessore alle infrastrutture della Regione Lombardia Raffaele Cattaneo, che ha esortato la collega a "non fare graduatorie di bravura o di risultati", pur ammettendo ritardi per il prolungamente di Alptransit a sud di Chiasso.


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Old December 5th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #377
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A report of the conference can be read here (in Italian): http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/vie...rt=240#p256190
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Old December 5th, 2009, 06:18 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A report of the conference can be read here (in Italian): http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/vie...rt=240#p256190
Very interesting!
Thanks!
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Old December 5th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #379
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You guys really get things done! Unfortunately over here we have an "Opposition": to anything. Allegedly it's called the Westminster System, but that's just a rumour. The upshot is, get nothing done.
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Old December 6th, 2009, 11:28 PM   #380
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Works are progressing on the line south of the Gotthard Base Tunnel. Some photos of today 6 Decembre 2009.

The lines is more or less this blue line:

http://maps.google.ch/maps/ms?ie=UTF...52941cfe9fccfb

Depot of the narrow gauge service trains.

[IMG]http://i48.************/wrnqsy.jpg[/IMG]

Towards north. On the right lies the building near the "B" on the map.

Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...04801&t=k&z=18

[IMG]http://i49.************/2dlnrpx.jpg[/IMG]

Same location looking south.

[IMG]http://i45.************/e8pf8x.jpg[/IMG]

The single track that allows trains to go to Biasca station. Most trains will go straight on the new line.

[IMG]http://i48.************/1zccyrk.jpg[/IMG]

Bridge over a river and a short artificial tunnel under a motorway junction. Here the line has three tracks to allow fast trains to overtake slower ones.

Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...01369&t=k&z=17

[IMG]http://i48.************/n6eu7d.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i47.************/25f4r4k.jpg[/IMG]

Service trains and one of the buildings used to load service trains with the new tracks and equipments to be installed into the tunnel.

[IMG]http://i50.************/11t5377.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i45.************/117efev.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.************/15ckkcj.jpg[/IMG]

Here ends the track built until today, and a few metres after also the line.

[IMG]http://i46.************/2iivkih.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.************/2a4vee1.jpg[/IMG]

The railway ends nowhere some hundreds metres from the existing line: the junction between the two has not yet been built. In the future the line will enter the 8 km long Riviera tunnel. You can see the cylindric building also in the map.

Map: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=d&sourc...=UTF8&t=k&z=18

[IMG]http://i48.************/11mcpb4.jpg[/IMG]
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