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Old December 6th, 2009, 11:37 PM   #381
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thx!! i often wondered how they will continue this part but didnt find any info about it

will this part also be 250 kph?
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Old December 7th, 2009, 12:14 AM   #382
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Quote:
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will this part also be 250 kph?
Yes, but trains will probably run slower to increase capacity.
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Old December 7th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #383
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Für den Güter, die Bahn!



Other photos: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7#post47452417
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Old December 8th, 2009, 07:17 AM   #384
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Warning: A lazy question.


Hello everyone. I have a confession. I don't have time right now to do any web research, not even time enough to read through all the previous pages of this thread.

So I'm going to ask a question about an issue that I'm sure has already come up in discussion before, so please forgive me if this gives you a feeling of deja vu.

My question relates to the situation regarding the approach lines that will connect to the new Gotthard Tunnel.

Reading the latest edition of the Hupac magazine 'Moving' yesterday, it seems as though it will be 2030 at the earliest that the Alpine crossing via the new Gotthard Tunnel will be capable of handling 4m-high unaccompanied piggyback trains.

Does anyone know why there is no political urgency in Switzerland to adjust the approach lines to the new Gotthard Tunnel to give them a ‘P400’ piggyback loading gauge in time for the opening of the new tunnel?

It just seems a bit silly to me to invest so much time and money into the longest tunnel in the world, only to have to wait several years after the opening of it for the connecting infrastructure to be modified to the most useful intermodal standard.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 10:25 AM   #385
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Piggyback trains carrying trucks will be routed via the Simplon-Lötschberg line, 50 km west and already at the gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge. There may be also a service on the Gotthard, but only for low height trucks.

But the target is mainly to increase classical intermodal traffic (containers, or semi-trailers without the engine) and wagonload traffic (single wagons or entire trains).

Piggyback trains like Eurotunnel are unefficient because they transport also the engines, not only goods.

The problem is that containers must use special low floor wagons, more expensive to maintain, like the one in the photo below. So at the moment loads requiring the bigger gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge will use the other AlpTransit line, as the Gotthard will initially be limited to gabarit B1 (PC45).

The main problem is not the loading gauge but the congestion of access lines. As some of them are in Italy, Switzerland can't do much.

[IMG]http://i49.************/167qzxl.jpg[/IMG]

(photo by myself, Piacenza station 3 Dec 2009)
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Old December 8th, 2009, 04:53 PM   #386
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Update maps can be seen here:
http://map.search.ch/pollegio
http://map.search.ch/frutigen
http://map.search.ch/st.german
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Old December 8th, 2009, 05:21 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Piggyback trains carrying trucks will be routed via the Simplon-Lötschberg line, 50 km west and already at the gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge. There may be also a service on the Gotthard, but only for low height trucks.
In the end it goes down to the compromise to build two axes with the same money that actually one axis would cost if it's build fully operational. If the money of the Loetschberg would have been used on the Gotthard it would have been a better solution for all. But federalism was more important. After all politics are important as well, as there is where the money is coming from.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 06:36 PM   #388
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So why don't they make one bore northbound only, and the other southbound only?
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Old December 8th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #389
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Because the two lines are parallel but with a lot of passenger traffic, that obviously wants to go in both direction.

The Lötschberg Base Tunnel itself is used mainly in one direction, to maximise capacity. Roughly with two northbound trains (of which 1 passenger) then four southbound trains (1 passenger), because southbound trains are usually heavier and the tunnel has 22 km of single track without passing loops.

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...witzerland.gif
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Old December 8th, 2009, 08:36 PM   #390
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Will they have autotrain service in any of those tunnels, to haul cars over double deck platforms?
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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:11 PM   #391
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No.

There is a project to make a service like Eurotunnel on the Lötschberg, but to do this it has to be entirely doubled, but there are no plans to do that.

However there are car shuttles on the old Lötschberg railway (and on other swiss railways).
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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:21 PM   #392
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Damm. No second Gotthard road bore, no car shuttle on Lotschberg tunnel... Now that Swiss politics are leaning right, who knows if they vote to lift the ban on extra transalpine road capacity, or at least lift it in regard of car traffic.

Then, they could also (in addition to 2nd Gotthard road bore) connect Bern with Spiz via road tunnels and higways, and further plan to build a tunnel under Simplon Pass to increase acess from Italy to Southwest Switzerland. The road pass is quite dangerous, crowded in summer, closed in winter, and the Domodossola car shuttle is slow and expensive (I'd rather pay € 40 to cross over a tunnel).
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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #393
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The Lötschberg base tunnel with a car shuttle service has been choosen also as alternative for a fast road under the Rawil pass (including a 10 km road tunnel). There are no discussions for a road tunnel throught the Lötschberg (or the Rawil) and the only link other than the road near Lake Geneva is the Lötschberg car shuttle.

The Simplon Pass is always open and with an AADT of less than 3.000 I don't think it needs a tunnel.

Traffic on the Gotthard motorway vary between 10.000 and 40.000 vehicles/day so a second road tunnel is considered not urgent (there are always endless discussions before a project can start in Switzerland, especially about cost/benefit analysis). Personally, I would vote for a second road tunnel if and only if the target of less than 650.000 trucks is reached.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 09:30 AM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Piggyback trains carrying trucks will be routed via the Simplon-Lötschberg line, 50 km west and already at the gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge. There may be also a service on the Gotthard, but only for low height trucks.

But the target is mainly to increase classical intermodal traffic (containers, or semi-trailers without the engine) and wagonload traffic (single wagons or entire trains).

Piggyback trains like Eurotunnel are unefficient because they transport also the engines, not only goods.

The problem is that containers must use special low floor wagons, more expensive to maintain, like the one in the photo below. So at the moment loads requiring the bigger gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge will use the other AlpTransit line, as the Gotthard will initially be limited to gabarit B1 (PC45).

The main problem is not the loading gauge but the congestion of access lines. As some of them are in Italy, Switzerland can't do much.
If you re-read my entry, you'll see that I am referring to unaccompanied intermodal trains carrying semi-trailers. These kind of trains are called piggyback trains.

The trains carrying complete trucks, like the Alpine Ro-La services and the Eurotunnel shuttles are not piggyback by definiton. They are rolling-road by definition.

So, as I say, for Hupac, and by implication, kombiverkehr and Cemat also, the fact that new Gotthard Tunnel will open in 2015 or there abouts means little, because the connecting lines will not be cleared for 4m-high unaccompanied semi-trailers until 2030 at the earliest.

Hence my question. Is there any pressure within Switzerland to bring forward the work to clear the whole Gotthard route to the P400 gauge?

If you read the latest edition of 'Moving', available from the Hupac website, you'll get confirmation of what I'm talking about.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:05 AM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Hence my question. Is there any pressure within Switzerland to bring forward the work to clear the whole Gotthard route to the P400 gauge?
No, because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Piggyback trains carrying trucks will be routed via the Simplon-Lötschberg line, 50 km west and already at the gabarit C (PC80) loading gauge. There may be also a service on the Gotthard, but only for low height trucks.
RoLa trains will go via the Lötschberg, on the Gotthard there will be only trains (RoLa or piggibacks) with the smaller gabarit B1 loading gauge (but the new line itself, where built, has the biggest loading gauge, EBV4/gabarit C/PC80, depending on the definition).

They are enlarging old tunnels on the access lines for double deck passenger trains, but I'm not sure that they will reach the gabarit C/EBV4/PC80/etc loading gauge.

I will read Moving later, now I haven't time.
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Old December 25th, 2009, 12:02 PM   #396
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Some photos of the existing line: http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/...vp.php?id=1154

Today it is closed because of a rock fall. Passenger trains replaced by buses.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Reading the latest edition of the Hupac magazine 'Moving' yesterday, it seems as though it will be 2030 at the earliest that the Alpine crossing via the new Gotthard Tunnel will be capable of handling 4m-high unaccompanied piggyback trains.
I haven't found a similar map about swiss lines, but for Italy, there is: http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...animetria3.pdf

Edit: also for Switzerland: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/ff/2002/3305.pdf (pages 40 and 41) and http://tinyurl.com/yze4qbw

English description of the LBT: http://www.srp.ch/de/referenzen/publ...-03-004-MA.pdf and http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/fileadm...ersExCo/78.PDF

Loading gauge around Basel (page 6): http://www.eisenbahnfreunde-wehr.de/...notenBasel.pdf
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; December 26th, 2009 at 01:06 AM.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 08:07 PM   #398
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Quote:
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the Domodossola car shuttle is slow and expensive (I'd rather pay € 40 to cross over a tunnel).
Yes, it's expensive but Simplon's tunnel it's 21 km long and there is a train shuttle...at least, you save gasoline.
But the official website gives 13 € http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/fr/reisemarkt/...lad-preise.htm
Don't forget that you pay 34 € to cross Mont Blanc tunnel and Frejus tunnel: they are shortest (almost 12 km) than Simplon.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #399
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Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri - 02.01.2010

As of January 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 141.82 km, or 93.4 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2009 was 538 m.

In the north portal of the Ceneri Base Tunnel at Vigana, driving under the A2 motorway continues. At Sigirino, the north-west drives in the caverna operativa (CAOP) are complete. In the south-west tunnel, driving continues with good advance rates. During September, work began on rerouting the Swiss Federal Railway line at Vezia.

Source: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/art...2/bezeichnung/.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 12:18 AM   #400
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Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri

As of February 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 142.48 km, or 93.84 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in January 2009 was 664 m.

Of the total of 40.19 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of January 2010, 7,637 m, or 19%, had been excavated.

Alptransit.ch
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