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Old April 30th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #741
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Anything known about the next open day? Unfortunately couldn't make it this time.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:49 AM   #742
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Hi to all

1) boring from Sigirino to the north is around 15 months late, and the opening of the tunnel might be delayed by at least at year, although they are doing everything to keep the timetable. Unfortunately some NIMBYs forbid to continue excavation also from the north.

2) until the end of the western tube (see photo below), around 700 m into the mountain. It was planned to continue an additional 2 km from there.

3) probably next Autumn, in another work site (likely Erstfeld or Biasca, extremely unlikely Sedrun). Check regularly AlpTransit's website for the exact date. Note that details about the open days are given only in German and sometimes also Italian.

In the photo below you can see the end of the western tube, around 700 m from the portal. There is only the sprayed concrete lining, as the definitive one will be built only when the Sigirino heading will arrive, probably in 2015 (or maybe 2016). Note that the lining seems solid, but actually breaks easily in dust. Other sprayed concrete linings are less dusty, so if you ever come into a tunnel under construction, consider that dust can enter the optical lenses of your camera and damage them forever (that's why I haven't used my main camera for these photos). The photo is taken in the same tube but looking in the opposite direction of the last photo of post #729.

[IMG]http://i39.************/34hut6x.jpg[/IMG]
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Old April 30th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
boring from Sigirino to the north is around 15 months late, and the opening of the tunnel might be delayed by at least at year, although they are doing everything to keep the timetable. Unfortunately some NIMBYs forbid to continue excavation also from the north.
That's a pity about the NIMBY attitude. Because of this, the project drags on perhaps a year or more longer than it would otherwise; benefitting no one in the long term.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #744
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Really? In that case how is the work on post-Gotthard/Ceneri base tunnel timetable proceeding?
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Quite well I assume. Some details have already been published. The definitive timetable will be ready in 2014, for an opening in December 2016.
That's one option. Nothing has been officially defined, but the map I made is probably a realistic option for the CBT.

[IMG]http://i41.************/2ptv3io.jpg[/IMG]

The Mendrisio-Varese line is under construction and may open in 2015. From Varese going towards Mendrisio there is another branch to Porto Ceresio, currently closed for rebuilding.

Frequency is also not defined, but the more likely off-peak service level is:
S10 every 60'
S20 every 30' (later in the future maybe every 15')
S30 every 120' (because of many freight trains on a single track), some more trains between Luino and Gallarate
S40 every 60'
S50 every 60'
RE every 60' (every 30' between Locarno and Lugano, without stop in Mendrisio)
IC/EC every 30' (every 60' south of Lugano)

Some peak-hour trains are likely to be added, increasing the number of logic lines/stopping patterns, like some Bellinzona-Giubiasco-CBT-Lugano-all stops-Chiasso trains.

Connections are likely to be proposed in all nodes, so to have fast connections between Milano and Locarno (changing in Lugano), Varese and Bellinzona (also in Lugano, RE+IC/EC, faster than the direct S50), Varese and Como (S50+S10 alternating with the direct S40), and so on.

As for the GBT, one possibility is an hourly Basel-Zürich-Lugano-Milano together with an hourly Luzern-Lugano service (maybe coming from Geneva via Berne?), with no more direct trains between Luzern (Lucerne) and Milano. On the old Gotthard line an option is serving it with the S10 (or the S50), which would then terminate somewhere in Canton Uri.

As I said, all these are speculations of myself, but based on what has been said in various occasions. Many things can still change, but my draft should be quite correct.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #745
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Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me

Currently there are few trains a day going via Lotschberg-Simplon route and taking a bit more than 4 h. After opening both base tunnels a 3 h journey on that route ought to be possible. Assuming of course there are enough slots for such a service... Perhaps it could even originate somewhere in Germany.
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Old May 26th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me
The question is not if there will be Basel-Gotthard-Milano trains, but how many of them and if via Lucerne or if via Zürich. They will take less than via the Simplon-Lötschberg, but hardly less than 3h45.

Some Basel-Milano trains via the Simplon-Lötschberg are likely to survive.
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Old May 26th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #747
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The question is not if there will be Basel-Gotthard-Milano trains, but how much of them and if via Lucerne or if via Zürich. They will take less than via the Simplon-Lötschberg, but hardly less than 3h45.
You are right, 3 h would probably only get me to Lugano (3h45 now). That last stretch is so slow...
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Old May 26th, 2013, 12:15 PM   #748
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Quote:
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Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me

Currently there are few trains a day going via Lotschberg-Simplon route and taking a bit more than 4 h. After opening both base tunnels a 3 h journey on that route ought to be possible. Assuming of course there are enough slots for such a service... Perhaps it could even originate somewhere in Germany.
The planned service is like this:

- Hourly EC Milano - GBT - Arth Goldau and then alternating to Luzern - Basel and Zürich.
- Hourly IC Zürich - Lugano. This train will run half an hour after the EC.
- Hourly IR Locarno - Gotthard (old route) Arth Goldau and then alternating to Basel and Zürich.

The EC and IR will (as is now also the case) be timed such that with an easy transfer in Arth Goldau an hourly service on both Zürich and Basel - Luzern to Milano via the GBT is realised.
I would expect the IC train to be timed such that there is a connection in Arth Goldau with a train to Luzern as well.

This way an half hourly service between the North of Switzerland and Ticino is created, and an hourly service to Milano.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #749
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Detailed schemes of the progress of the works can be found here: http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/0...x.html?lang=it (the 4 PDF files on the right)

If I read them correctly, around 4 km have to be excavated to the north of the CBT, and 2.5 km to the south.

More detailed reports of works can be found here (de-fr-it): http://www.parlament.ch/i/dokumentat...e/default.aspx
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:10 AM   #750
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Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 03:49 AM   #751
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Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.
There are some projects on the Swiss side.

The problem is that the Swiss split their monies on two half-jobs under the Alps: the single-tracked Lötschberg tunnel and the Gotthard base tunnel. This left Italy without an incentive to build a full-grade HSL to either.

Had they chosen just one of the links, Italy might have agreed to chime in with another HSL. But full HSR link Bern-Lugano will not be accomplished in our lifetimes, realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed. So Italy has no incentive to order a HSL Milano-Chiasso or Milano-Brig (with new Sempione high-speed tunnel)
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 05:06 AM   #752
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There are many steps between the existing situation and a full HSL. What is missing on the Italian side is not HS but a decent plan to improve the existing lines, which could and should be done to match with what's going on on the Swiss side.
Remember that HS railway may improve point to point passengers travel time, but left standing alone brings few to no advantages to all the rest of rail traffic.

The two half-jobs are not an excuse: it was not the Swiss' choice, the corridors are in fact two.
An improvement is going on on the Lötschberg axis, nothing on the Simplon line, and that's the problem.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 11:32 AM   #753
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Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.
The problem is not the travel time, which is acceptable, but the low number of trains and the difficulty to buy tickets and to change them if you want to take another train (but Suburbanist will probably find that a good thing).

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Had they chosen just one of the links...
Had they chosen just one of the links, none of them would have been built. The Lötschberg base tunnel has been built only to allow the referendum pass (it passed in 1992 with 66% of "yes"). If it wasn't proposed, the Gotthard base tunnel (which is and always will be the main transit axis) alone would have not been accepted. Just think that a third base line (Chur-Splügen-Lecco-Tirano) was also planned but has been quickly refused mainly because it didn't serve Swiss national traffic, but only the international one.

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But full HSR link Bern-Lugano will not be accomplished in our lifetimes, realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed.
It is always easy being generous with other people's money. It is exactly because the Swiss care much about capacity and speed for as much people as possible that they carefully plan the timetable.

Sure some trips will take too much time for centuries from now, like Brig-Lugano (3h50 by train, like I did yesterday, or 2h30 by car, for 80 km as the crow flies), but there are the Alps in between and Italy in between, which is not interested at all to improve such link (which is obvious, as it is nearly useless for Italian national traffic).

When planning the AlpTransit project many options were considered, one of them being a direct link Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen-Bern/Lucerne. IMHO it would have been a better choice than simply building a lower tunnel on an existing route as it is being done now. This "Gotthard West" project would have meant a slightly longer travel time for Milano-Lugano-Zürich trains, but a much quicker trip from Lugano to Bern (and Lausanne/Geneva). However it is obvious that now it can't be constructed, meaning that Switzerland will have a wall separating its western and eastern parts for two thirds of its north-south extension.

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The two half-jobs are not an excuse: it was not the Swiss' choice, the corridors are in fact two.
An improvement is going on on the Lötschberg axis, nothing on the Simplon line, and that's the problem.
The Simplon-Lötschberg railway increased traffic a lot in the last few years, with freight reaching 10 million tonnes annually (Gotthard: 16), but the main axis remains the Gotthard, and Italy should concentrate its effort on that (either via Luino or via Chiasso), keeping its part of the Simplon line in good conditions but without building new tracks there.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:07 PM   #754
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I asked in the first place for Milano Lugano because it is common for both trajects, the time now is one hour for 80 Km, which could be turn by half easily and because it seems that there is not a any problem to make such a connection. Besides Lugano and Como could profit of such a line, and those are well known cities. Specifically for Milan Lugano, is there any particular problem that prevents for making a HSL between this cities?
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:43 PM   #755
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Except for 30 km of mountains, an up to 270 m deep lake (with the exception of one single point which would impose a tight S-curve), and a state (Italy) unwilling to do anything...no, there isn't any particular problem!

Note that Italy is so unwilling to speed up the line that there is a point south of Como where a track has three switches one after another of which two limited to 60 km/h (making the third 100 km/h switch useless), and where the other track has a 100 km/h switch limited for some reasons to 60 km/h, too, so that trains have to slow down just because of a badly planned junction. In addition to that, these speed limitations are only on the diverging line to Como where fast passenger trains run, while there are no speed restrictions on Como's bypass...which is used only by 100 km/h freight trains.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 01:21 PM   #756
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Except for 30 km of mountains, an up to 270 m deep lake (with the exception of one single point which would impose a tight S-curve), and a state (Italy) unwilling to do anything...no, there isn't any particular problem!

Note that Italy is so unwilling to speed up the line that there is a point south of Como where a track has three switches one after another of which two limited to 60 km/h (making the third 100 km/h switch useless), and where the other track has a 100 km/h switch limited for some reasons to 60 km/h, too, so that trains have to slow down just because of a badly planned junction. In addition to that, these speed limitations are only on the diverging line to Como where fast passenger trains run, while there are no speed restrictions on Como's bypass...which is used only by 100 km/h freight trains.
Now it is clear.......very strange italian attitude, until 2010 they really made major improvements in their network, now everything seems to go slow, only Milan Brescia is on the way that i know of. What about Munich side, i have read the federal railways web page and i see a project for a Lindau Geltendorf improvement towads 2016, is it on schedule?

http://www.bav.admin.ch/hgv/01872/01...x.html?lang=fr
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:44 PM   #757
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Italian major works have been just new HSL lines. The rest of the network is let to rot.
Speaking about Swiss railways, look at the missing will to complete the Arcisate - Stabio link... I suspect FS is slowing it down by purpouse to convince Switzerland to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The Simplon-Lötschberg railway increased traffic a lot in the last few years, with freight reaching 10 million tonnes annually (Gotthard: 16), but the main axis remains the Gotthard, and Italy should concentrate its effort on that (either via Luino or via Chiasso), keeping its part of the Simplon line in good conditions but without building new tracks there.
I actually made a mistake writing that, what I meant is that works will begin on the Simplon line but nothing on the Gotthard one, which as you said is the main one.
I'm talking about the 4-tracks section Rho-Gallarate, which aim is mainly capacity for freight and regional traffic, but which may bring speed advantages, too.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 06:42 PM   #758
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The Rho-Gallarate quadrupling might be of some use also for the Gotthard (via Luino), however NIMBYs managed to cancel this project for the next decade (curiously, they said that it would have been better to increase the suburban train service instead, when this project was exactly aimed at that...).
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 07:08 PM   #759
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...realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed....
If anything SBB obsessed with providing the best service possible. And it appears that they are doing a good job there, as witnessed by their success.

For the passengers point of view what mattes is how fast he/she gets from A to B, not how fast the train is. And what matters more is reliability than squeezing every possible minute out of the timetable. Commuters rather spend 50 minutes every day, than 40 minutes 4 days out of 5, and 2 hours on the fifth...

The biggest problem the SBB has at the moment is it's success. It has to find ways to put more trains on the tracks, and to provide more seats in it's trains, and it has to do this fast. The biggest problem SBB has is that basically to many people are taking it's trains...

Providing more capacity, in a reliable way does require investments. The money for those investments is limited, as unlike Italy Switzerland can't stick Germany with the bill.
If you want to maximize the utility of those limited investments you do start with the timetable. That is what all countries who don't want to build themselves HSL lines in to bankruptcy actually do...
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 08:05 PM   #760
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useless post, Suburbanist has the Truth, you will never manage him to change his ideas!
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