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Old December 19th, 2013, 02:11 PM   #821
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
got a question for you people. the argument for the tunnel is apparently to draw transit traffic onto rail. almost all rail transit traffic heading south enters switzerland at basel, noticeably db and they are slowly speeding up the route between frankfurt and basel, making other border crossing points even less attractive. from basel to milano, you can today travel via brig to milan in about 4 hrs. if you go by gotthard, it will take 4 hrs 45 min. the new tunnel is supposed to knock off ca. 55 mins travel time off that route. the advantage of taking the new tunnel for somebody coming from basel or germany and heading to milan would thus be no more than 10 mins over the brig route. am i missing something here or does this make the gotthard base tunnel no more than a local subway between zurich and milan, rather than a transcontinental corridor? or will other tunnels and additional improvements knock off some more of the travel time? or is the argument as usual, we are building some ultra-expensive infrastructure for hs, but basically just use it for extra capacity? or to please construction contractors? i would be happy for answers from people more familiar with the project and switzerland in general.
The GBT has two main purposes:
- Make Zürich - Milano passenger services faster
- Increase cross alpine freight capacity.

It was never the main intention to create a faster route for passenger trains from Basel to Milano, although some Basel - Milano services might use the GBT route once it opens.

You cannot draw conclusions about the consequences the GBT will have for freight on current and future passenger timetables. Freight runs to a different schedule, and from Basel to the Gotthard even uses a different route then passenger trains. The Gotthard is actually a more convenient North - South route for most freight and already carries more freight traffic than the Lötschberg - Simplon route, even though it is slower.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
got a question for you people. the argument for the tunnel is apparently to draw transit traffic onto rail. almost all rail transit traffic heading south enters switzerland at basel, noticeably db and they are slowly speeding up the route between frankfurt and basel, making other border crossing points even less attractive. from basel to milano, you can today travel via brig to milan in about 4 hrs. if you go by gotthard, it will take 4 hrs 45 min. the new tunnel is supposed to knock off ca. 55 mins travel time off that route. the advantage of taking the new tunnel for somebody coming from basel or germany and heading to milan would thus be no more than 10 mins over the brig route. am i missing something here or does this make the gotthard base tunnel no more than a local subway between zurich and milan, rather than a transcontinental corridor?
Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.

Secondly, the Gotthard base tunnel will have smaller slopes than the Lötschberg-Simplon line and will therefore allow much longer and heavier trains.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #823
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The Lötschberg tunnel has severe capacity constraints as it is has 27km of single tracks.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 05:01 PM   #824
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Quote:
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Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.
It's actually Basel - Brügg (bypass) - Othmarsingen - Rotkreuz that the freights go. They don't go through Lenzburg itself. Othmarsingen is a great place to spot trains btw..
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Old December 19th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.
no, of course i did not calculate basel-zürich-gotthard. i calculated routes as they are used by passenger trains from basel. they join up with the gotthard line at arth-goldau.
otherwise thanks everyone for the info. to summarize: the speed benefit will really be limited to Zurich and environs, while the main benefit is the guarantee of capacities for future decades, especially for freight.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #826
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Apparently the service pattern will change with the GBT and CBT.

Instead of Basel-Luzern-Milano* and Zürich-Milano trains, there should be (something north of-)Basel-Zürich-Milano and Basel-Luzern-Lugano(-Milano a few times a day).

*as for now all limited to Basel-Luzern-Lugano, except a single Luzern-Lugano-Milano

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The Lötschberg tunnel has severe capacity constraints as it is has 27km of single tracks.
22 km, not 27 km. Anyway, the limit is on the Lötschberg base tunnel, not on the Lötschberg (which has between 2 and 4 tracks).
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Old December 19th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It's actually Basel - Brügg (bypass) - Othmarsingen - Rotkreuz that the freights go. They don't go through Lenzburg itself. Othmarsingen is a great place to spot trains btw..
It's Brugg, and are you sure they will still use the Bözberg for long trains? It has 14.0 ‰, which is a little too much AFAIK.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #828
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Yes, they still plan to use the Bözberg towards the Gotthard. Even if its maximum incline is 14‰, it is still less than the 20‰ between the CBT and Chiasso (20‰ between the CBT and Lugano, 17‰ between Lugano and Chiasso, 20‰ on ~700 m northbound, longest 17‰ section Chiasso-Mendrisio, ~7 km in that direction).

All AlpTransit lines are designed with a maximum of 12.5‰ incline, even the LBT, although it is surrounded by higher ramps (up to 25‰ on the Simplon southern ramp). On the Luino branch the ramps are less than 12.5‰.

Note that also the Olten-Othmarsingen and the old Ceneri line will be adapted for higher trains (EBV3 or EBV4 loading gauge, P80/C400 intermodal transport profile) to provide alternate routes.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
no, of course i did not calculate basel-zürich-gotthard. i calculated routes as they are used by passenger trains from basel. they join up with the gotthard line at arth-goldau.
otherwise thanks everyone for the info. to summarize: the speed benefit will really be limited to Zurich and environs, while the main benefit is the guarantee of capacities for future decades, especially for freight.
Also for canton Ticino. I don't think Simplon/LBT is a viable alternative for Basel-Lugano trains.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #830
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It's Brugg, and are you sure they will still use the Bözberg for long trains? It has 14.0 ‰, which is a little too much AFAIK.
SBB even plans a new Bözberg tunnel parallel to the old one.
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Old February 8th, 2014, 12:54 AM   #831
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Status of the work Gotthard and Ceneri Base Tunnel

On the overground section north, from Altdorf railway station to the Stille Reuss bridge, the copper overhead conductor has been installed. From the Stille Reuss bridge to Riedstrasse the masts have been fitted with overhead-conductor supports.

Since December 12, 2013, all underground areas of the Sedrun section have been technically tested. The last areas to be accepted were the access adit, the inclined air-extraction shaft, shafts 1 and 2, and the entire shaft-head cavern at Sedrun.

At Faido, the underground work is complete. By the end of January 2014, the contractor had removed the surface installations.

Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of January 2014, 29.40 km, or 73.9 %, had been excavated.

State: February 1, 2014
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Old February 8th, 2014, 06:14 AM   #832
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Good progress is being made on the CBT:

http://www.alptransit.ch/fileadmin/d...nnel/cbt-e.gif



I wonder if we'll see a breakthrough to the south this year?
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Old February 8th, 2014, 06:48 AM   #833
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I hope so
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Old February 8th, 2014, 04:59 PM   #834
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It is possible (or early 2015).

Boring could be completed -I think- between 2015 and 2016.

Note that there was a plan to bore an additional ~1.3 km km from the north (rather than just 0.7 km), but this has been abandoned because of nimbysm.

The section from the access shaft to Vezia portal was also proposed as 2 km drill&blast+ 4 km TBM (shield type, not open type like for the GBT), but the contractor decided to use drill&blast only.

Very early in the planning phase using TBMs all the way from Vigana to Vezia was planned, but geological surveys proved that to be risky (TBMs could have been trapped in difficult rock).
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Old March 12th, 2014, 08:28 AM   #835
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Construction Site Visit

"NEXT CONSTRUCTION SITE VISIT Ceneri Base Tunnel, 20 September 2014"

Looks like only one site visit is planned for 2014. In the past they've usually had 'em every quarter.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 07:26 PM   #836
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Apparently yes.

Meanhwhile, two days ago a test train reached 220 km/h on the still isolated section of electrified track.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #837
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The South portal is looking almost finished now.. On the right side an Interregio train coming down from the Gotthard mountain line.



by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:38 AM   #838
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According to this photo you can't enter the western tube to/from Biasca - a big design fault, if this is confirmed.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:53 AM   #839
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According to this photo you can't enter the western tube to/from Biasca - a big design fault, if this is confirmed.
What is the problem?
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:01 AM   #840
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No, the work just isn't finished yet. There will be a double cross-over in both directions between the connection line and the tunnel portal.
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