daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 27th, 2014, 05:34 AM   #841
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Actually I don't understand why this wasn't built as a flying junction: the morphology of the area is perfect for that.



Such a milestone tunnelling project, and just a poor grade junction at the end? That's not America. That's not even Mexico!

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by steple View Post
No, the work just isn't finished yet. There will be a double cross-over in both directions between the connection line and the tunnel portal.
Sorry, I did read this later. Do you mean they'll build what I drew? It makes sense to not build it immediately, since it would just create problems, with building works in the middle of an operating line.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Swede liked this post

Last edited by Wilhem275; March 27th, 2014 at 05:50 AM.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 27th, 2014, 06:10 AM   #842
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111



There won't be a grade separated junction.
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2014, 08:49 AM   #843
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuZealand View Post
What is the problem?
steple said that there will be a crossover between the connecting track and the tunnel, but if there wasn't, it would have been impossible to access the northbound (left) track when coming from Biasca, and Biasca-GBT trains would have had to go against the traffic on the southbound (right) tunnel.

A solution like Wilhem275's one would be nice, but I doubt it will be realised.

It would not be much needed, anyway: northbound freights will use the third track (the lefternmost one, not in his drawing), southbound freights will use the connecting track to go through Biasca. This will allow passenger trains to overtake freights.

All trains going to/from the old line will go through Biasca. These will mostly be regional trains, but I wouldn't be surprised if the old line will still be used by light and smaller trains (the old line has a smaller loading gauge than the new one, the difference is around 40 cm on the top corners of the trains).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #844
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I believe too, that the two lines will mostly work as indipendent systems and will share just few trains.
Still, given the importance of the line and being the last junction before that long, isolated stretch, I would look for maximum flexibility, to be able to make quick adjustments if something goes wrong.

In fact my concept would come at a cost of just one simple bridge (and not much more land usage), which seems acceptable to me, given the general cost of the whole project.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Swede liked this post
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #845
steple
Registered User
 
steple's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 311
Likes (Received): 1142

In the long term planning (piano direttore in italian) there is still a project to build a bypass for Bellinzona, and link the GBT via the Galleria della Riviera to the Ceneri Base tunnel. With that, the old and new lines would be completely separated, so no flyover is needed.

steple no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #846
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Which, in the long run, is not good in terms of reliability.
One aspect is to have mostly separated traffic, which is probably a more efficient usage of the whole capacity; but having physically separated lines is in no way a good thing, because service suffers great costraints every time there is a minor problem on one line.

A system made of two lines, crossing each other many times (as seen in the map), is taken to its full potential when there are many interchange points along the route, for example as the Neue Unterinntalbahn was designed (I don't like that line, but the interchange points are perfect).

Considering that these designs are easier to fit in the environment when the new line runs in tunnels (as seen in Biasca), I don't understand what's the point of sparing a handful of cheap flyovers while spending so much for the whole project. It's like cutting 5% of capacity and reliability just to spare 0,01% on budget

Yes, those flyovers are not needed in normal operations... but things aren't always "normal"
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #847
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

If there is a problem on any stretch, you don't need the flyover anymore, same level crossing is enough, because you won't be able to use that stretch anymore. Why would you need a flyover over a track that is not used at the moment because of a problem?
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #848
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I don't need the flyover over the tracks being interrupted, but over the part of line which is still operating. To put it into map: take my drawing, let's call those "North flyover" (over the GBT) and "South flyover" (over the Biasca bypass).

Situation: the GBT northbound track gets a sudden disruption, a train blocked inside due to a failure. You have to send trains to the old line or they'll begin to pile up along the line. At the same time, the southbound track is operating normally.
The Biasca NBS bypass is still operating, as well as the old line through Biasca.

With the current setup, you'll have all northbound trains from the NBS crossing the path of southbound trains coming from GBT, with a drop in capacity.
Now, referring to my drawing, in such a situation the "North flyover" is completely useless of course, but the "South flyover" would avoid any conflict, granting indipendence between the two directions.

Then again, in this situation some northbound freight trains would have to be stopped anyway (incompatible loading gauge), and Biasca station should receive them, which means you have to get them out of NEAT2 at the junction ("Osogna" in the map), and without a flyover they would also have to cross the path of southbound trains coming from NBS... it's a nasty mess.

With just a couple of bridges, northbound and southbound traffics would be completely indipendent, whatever happens on one track.

Also, that setup gives full flexibility for the future: at any time you may decide what trains stop or skip Biasca, without limiting the capacity of GBT
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 06:59 PM   #849
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

That's (likely) the eastern cavern for the future junction of the "Bergvariante Lang", an extension that would bring the GBT to 80 km.

[IMG]http://i60.************/29x6azs.jpg[/IMG]

The annual reports reporting progress on all (federal) rail projects have been published these days (all in German, some in French, a few in Italian) and can be found in the first link. The second link has plans ("Weg-Zeit-...") showing construction progress and planned future events. In the CBT, breaktrough to the north is planned in November 2014, to the south in January 2016. There are some geological risks left, however these estimiations are usually pessimistic. But no breakthrough can be expected this year.

https://www.news.admin.ch/message/in...e&msg-id=52561

http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/0...x.html?lang=de
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Deadeye Reloaded liked this post
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 07:22 PM   #850
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

They are planning a breakthrough to the North first? Just by observing monthly progress reports at alptransit.ch it seemed obvious that Southern breakthrough is much closer...
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 10:01 PM   #851
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
They are planning a breakthrough to the North first? Just by observing monthly progress reports at alptransit.ch it seemed obvious that Southern breakthrough is much closer...
That does seem strange. However, blasting to the North continues 24/7. Blasting to the South is only allowed during the daytime, because the tunnelling is quite close to the surface now and in a heavily populated area.

I think it would be great if AlpTransit overlaid the actual tunnel progress positions with Google satellite views of the actual locations to the North/South.
__________________

Perennial Quest liked this post
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #852
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Initially it was planned to bore also from Camorino (northern portal) toward Sigirino, but this was rejected ebcause of nimbysm. It would have saved half a year...also because tracks will be laid from starting the north, so that finishing the southern section earlier would not be that useful.

AlpTransit AG publishes satellite photos showing were the tunnel headings are, but as PDF showing just the current position, so if you don't know the region, you can't easily recognise the place.

They can be downloaded here: http://www.alptransit.ch/it/stampa/c...04179377e49f14

Actual northern heading: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sigiri...icino&t=h&z=17

Actual southern heading: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sigiri...icino&t=h&z=18 (under the red tennis courts)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2014, 08:37 AM   #853
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

That's awesome. Thanks for those links. I didn't know they were even there.
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #854
steple
Registered User
 
steple's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 311
Likes (Received): 1142

Tests are going on in the south part of Gotthard base tunnel with speeds up to 220 km/h. The test train is formed with 2 Re 460 and pushed into the tunnel by a diesel locomotive, because the overhead wires are not finished yet.

Photo by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net at the south portal near Biasca:



There is a video of one test ride here: http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/tes...id2781636.html

The best thing is: You can look around 360 degrees during the video by simply clicking and dragging with your mouse! That's a really cool feature!!

__________________
steple no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #855
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

Thanks steple. Great video. It takes a bit of getting used to, panning around like that.

This is such an amazing project. I look forward to hearing much more about the great Gotthard Base Tunnel in the next two years before its opening.
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 10:19 PM   #856
pimlico30
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 194
Likes (Received): 37

Thanks Steple, it’s a remarkable video. If you download it in .mp4 format, you will have an amazing 360° view film! One word of warning – it’s quite large at 167MB.
pimlico30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2014, 12:10 PM   #857
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

I was trying to find the ventilation shaft by Sedrun on Google satellite view. The horizontal access from Sedrun is about 1000 m and then the vent shaft is another 450 m beyond.

There's a view of what it would look like in the video operational ventilation:
http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/sh...ntilation.html
Right at the end of this video.

After scrolling around on Google, I still can't identify the vent exit. Does anyone know where exactly it is? Cheers.
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #858
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

It is likely this one: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sedrun...+Grigioni&z=19

Just out of curiosity, here are other tunnels' ventilation shafts:

Gotthard road tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Hospen...ntal,+Uri&z=19

San Bernardino road tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=San+Be...gioni&t=k&z=19

There is one also for the Lötschberg base tunnel near Ferden, but I can't find it.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #859
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Thanks, it was quite easy to miss the Sedrun vent, as it's so small.


Quote:
There is one also for the Lötschberg base tunnel near Ferden, but I can't find it.
I tried to find it also, with no success.

~~~~

Based on that link you provided a few posts back of the weekly progress in the CBT, I worked out this (note, we use commas to separate groups of thousands in my country):

East
CBT East tube total length: 15,452 metres long.
Excavated from Vigana: 766 metres.
Excavated from Vezia: 339 metres.
Total East tube in Sigirino section: 14,347 metres.

North East heading (as at 11 April): 231.504 km
South East heading (as at 11 April): 241.271 km
Total East tube excavated from Sigirino: 9,767 metres.

Total to be excavated in East tube: 4,580 metres.


West
CBT West tube total length: 15,306 metres long.
Excavated from Vigana: 749 metres.
Excavated from Vezia: 303 metres.
Total West tube in Sigirino section: 14,254 metres.

North West heading (as at 11 April): 331.227 km
South West heading (as at 11 April): 341.103 km
Total West tube excavated from Sigirino: 9,876 metres.

Total to be excavated in West tube: 4,378 metres.

Total to be excavated East+West: 8,958 metres.

I think my calculations are correct. These ignore the cross passages.
__________________

Coccodrillo liked this post
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2014, 11:32 PM   #860
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuZealand View Post
I tried to find it also, with no success.
I think I found it: http://goo.gl/maps/mfKp4

It is shown on the sectorial plan's map (which shows future public infrastructure projects, including the future AlpTransit tunnels, look here).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alps

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium