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Old December 9th, 2008, 03:13 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
With that current pace of digging all tunnels could be bored until beginning of 2010. Is it possible?
It's a question I asked this time last year with the breakthrough in the west tunnel between Sedrun and Amsteg that was 9 months ahead of schedule. According to Coccodrillo, the last tunnel breakthrough is scheduled between 2011 and 2012. But as mentioned by Momo above, they could finish this by late 2009/early 2010 if they're able to maintain the current pace.

It's a smart strategy - base the tunneling schedule on the worst case scenario and if you get it done earlier, you're a hero. Underpromise, overdeliver - very smart.
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Old December 9th, 2008, 10:41 AM   #122
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exactly, officially the main breakthrough is planend for the beginning of 2011 (until a few months ago, it was planned for late 2001). Opening is still planned for december 2017.

But remember that today the east TBM in Faido is boring 60 per week, instead of 120 m of the west TBM.

If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:14 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.
Here's a possible explanation for the Dec. 2017 date: if the contractors finish the tunnel on time or early (Dec. 2012?!?), would they be awarded a bonus?

Just a thought . . .
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Old December 10th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
exactly, officially the main breakthrough is planend for the beginning of 2011 (until a few months ago, it was planned for late 2001). Opening is still planned for december 2017.

But remember that today the east TBM in Faido is boring 60 per week, instead of 120 m of the west TBM.

If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.
i think december 2012 is too optimistic because after last breakthrough there is still a lot of work to do(placing railway lines, safety systems).probably mid 2014-begining 2015 is a realistic date.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #125
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Quote:
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Here's a possible explanation for the Dec. 2017 date: if the contractors finish the tunnel on time or early (Dec. 2012?!?), would they be awarded a bonus?

Just a thought . . .
I lived in Switzerland in my youth and, believe me, these guys usually pad their estimates. It's natural: the population HATE negative surprises, so constructors have an interest in coming up with very conservative estimates of construction costs and time. Several large infrastructure projects in recent years were finished ahead of time and under budgets - which in most other countries would sound like science fiction.

Incidentally, this principle applies to railway operations as well: SBB/CFF have one of the best timelyness records in the western world. They also have one of the lowest average speeds on their intercity trains. The two things are... not unrelated.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:13 AM   #126
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i think december 2012 is too optimistic because after last breakthrough there is still a lot of work to do(placing railway lines, safety systems).probably mid 2014-begining 2015 is a realistic date.
Lötschebrg Base Tunnel: breakthrough april 2005, opening for freight trains june 2007, regular timetable december 2007.

Maybe hoping for the last breakthrough in april 2010 is too optimsitic. However there are only 6,2 km left between Faido and Sedrun, and about 3 between Amsteg and Erstfeld.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #127
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Communiqué of 05.01.2009

Work is proceeding rapidly

After the Christmas/New Year break, work on all ATG construction sites has been resumed. At Bodio, Faido, Sedrun, Amsteg and Erstfeld driving is continuing.
As of January 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 124 km, or 80.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2008 was 964 m.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 11:10 PM   #128
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It will be interested in the future which criterias use to measure a tunnel because tunnels become more and more complex than a tube. The brenner basis tunnel with the main entrance will be 55 km but with the Innsbruck bypass it will be 62.7 km, more than the 57 km GBT.
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Old January 7th, 2009, 01:11 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As of January 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 124 km, or 80.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2008 was 964 m.
Yeah, I have to agree with you Coccodrillo: The 964 m in December represented a relatively modest progress, but EVEN AT THIS PACE the remaining 29 km could be achieved in 2 1/2 years. We should probably brace ourselves for the finalisation of the raw tunnel some time in 2011? - But, like you say, that is not to say that the railway connection will be ready anytime soon thereafter. Judging by the LGVs of France they need at least another 3-4 years after the finalisation of the "travaux de genie" to lay the tracks, install signalling equipment, etc. etc. etc.
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Old January 7th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #130
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1) The BBT will be 55 km long. I consider the BBT and the Inntal tunnel two separate tunnels, because the first is composed by two single track tubes, the second by a single double track tube.

2) In december only 964 m has been excavated because of holydays, usually dey bore 2 to 2,4 km per month. If all goes well, breakthrough could be in spring 2010, or in summer 2010. The opening in december 2012-december 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
Lötschebrg Base Tunnel: breakthrough april 2005, opening for freight trains june 2007, regular timetable december 2007.
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Old January 7th, 2009, 08:49 PM   #131
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Schon gut, but the comparison with Loetschberg can take us only so and so far: more than 70% of it is single track as far as I know. Wouldn't this (I'm not sure myself...), other things equal, make the mopping up operations after the actual drillings (or "Sprengvortrieb" in this case...) significantly faster?

PS: what do you have against Cisalpino? I myself am quite impressed with the new Pendolino.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 06:21 PM   #132
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Track can be laid in both tubes simultaneously. Maybe they have to wait the end of boring phase, because the finished parts of the tunnel are used to remove the excavated rock with the narrow gauge service railway.

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PS: what do you have against Cisalpino? I myself am quite impressed with the new Pendolino.
Cisalpino, SBB and Trenitalia wanted to put into service a new timetable projected to be used by 23 EMU trains. But there are only 9 EMU now: some trains are cancelled, some are late, because there are often no spare trains. If a Zurich-Milan train break down, as is often the case, the corresponding Milan-Zurich service is canceled, too, because there are not enough EMU.

This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). They also compare CIS trains with internal swiss intercitys on the same route (ICN Gotthard, trains 6xx and 10xxx).

The New Pendolino seems good, the problem is that SBB and Trenitalia wanted absolutely the new timetable, even if with only 9 trainsets instead of 23 it is impossible to operate correctly the service. In addition, these 9 sets are the first generation of Pendolino, and are quite unreliable and broke down often.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 12:36 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). They also compare CIS trains with internal swiss intercitys on the same route (ICN Gotthard, trains 6xx and 10xxx).
I took a look at the site. There's no doubt that the Swiss intercity trains operate with much less delay in like circumstances. One question, however: how much of this is due to deficiencies in the rolling stock? As I read the evidence most of the Cisalpinos are delayed in departure rather than slowing down on mid-route. If so, this could be due to late arrival of the trains from Italy - a country that, without insulting our Italian friends - is... shall we say less known for punctuality than Switzerland.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 01:17 PM   #134
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I think also that rolling stock is very stressed because it is always in service. I saw a train with some parts repaired with...scotch tape.

Sometimes a train should arrive in Milan at, say, 12.50 and return to Zürich at 13.10. But if the 12.50 train to Milan is late and there is not a spare trainset, also the 13.10 will be late, and so on.

Problems are caused by all factors: usual Italian delays, quite unreliable trains and lack of trainsets.

I remember an unluckily day in December, where both the 13.10 and 15.10 trains from Milan broke down. There were no working trains held in reserve, so all people boarded the 16.10 train - there were more than 600-650 people on a train with 400 seats (it was one of the remaining EuroCity, not a Cisalpino). I had a seat reserved on this train, but it was impossible to board the train, with people standing on steeps and toilets...I then opted for a car.
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Old January 9th, 2009, 08:56 PM   #135
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Problems are caused by all factors: usual Italian delays, quite unreliable trains and lack of trainsets.
Mmmmwell, yes, the "usual Italian delays" as you put it.... There's not much to be done about those. If the Italian populace accepts them - up to the point where the Swiss might even be thought silly or childish for expecting timeliness - then I guess there's nothing to do other than to grin and bear it. An Italian poster on Inmondodeitreni a few months back had the following comment regarding AnsaldoBreda's failure yet to provide the intercity trains to the Danish DSB that were promised for 2004: "Li stanno consegnando. Ci lavora un mio amico che ora è in Danimarca per i collaudi. Però mi dice pure che 'sti danesi rompono il c...o pure se al posto di una brugola trovano una vite normale..."

Well... with neighbours such as these...
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Old January 9th, 2009, 11:51 PM   #136
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I planned today to take the 19.10 Cisalpino, but when I saw on Trenitalia website that apparently it never leaved Florence, I decided to use regional trains stopping at all stations. Instead of one hour, my trip lasted two. But, at least, I finally reached my home (Lugano, 75 km from Milano). Passengers going to Zürich took the 20.10 Cisalpino, that is still running about 20 minutes late.

Apparently also the corresponding Zürich-Florence train broke down. And they had no spare trains.

On an Italian forum a Swiss railway employee said that is yet planned that tomorrow the 19.10 and other traisn will not run because the lack of trains. I will see.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 07:09 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Track can be laid in both tubes simultaneously. Maybe they have to wait the end of boring phase, because the finished parts of the tunnel are used to remove the excavated rock with the narrow gauge service railway.




Cisalpino, SBB and Trenitalia wanted ...This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). often.
Not quite so : cesso has very vulgar, and rude connotations
more likely : dive, shithole; (riferito a cosa) load of shit;
or even cesspit
Therefore the name cesso-alpino is not very nice.

The title of web site quoted suggests a polemic or bias attitude towards the cisalpino.

Tilting trains are more complex, hence more delicate, than conventional trains.

There could be a number of reasons for delays or break downs, which might not be necessarily ascribable to bad technical planning or construction.

All types of trains (including ICEs), as well as all types of mechanical and "biological" machines, have their strong and weak points.......

regards,
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Old January 10th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #138
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I assure you that "Cessoalpino" is the less vulgar nickname used by passengers or train drivers to define ETR 470 trains.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 11:53 PM   #139
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Apparently, 6 out of 9 trainsets are broken, so 8 out of 16 Milano-Zürich trains have been canceled today...only 50% of trains reched Zürich or Milan...
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Old January 11th, 2009, 08:44 PM   #140
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I assure you that "Cessoalpino" is the less vulgar nickname used by passengers or train drivers to define ETR 470 trains.
I have no doubt about it!
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