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Old January 11th, 2009, 11:11 PM   #141
gramercy
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its a shame they cancelled the Porta Alpina
the swiss are so damn careful with their money
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Old January 14th, 2009, 11:46 PM   #142
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Mmmmwell, yes, the "usual Italian delays" as you put it.... There's not much to be done about those. If the Italian populace accepts them - up to the point where the Swiss might even be thought silly or childish for expecting timeliness - then I guess there's nothing to do other than to grin and bear it. An Italian poster on Inmondodeitreni a few months back had the following comment regarding AnsaldoBreda's failure yet to provide the intercity trains to the Danish DSB that were promised for 2004: "Li stanno consegnando. Ci lavora un mio amico che ora è in Danimarca per i collaudi. Però mi dice pure che 'sti danesi rompono il c...o pure se al posto di una brugola trovano una vite normale..."

Well... with neighbours such as these...
Well... with neighbours such as these...

One does not need enemies.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 09:04 AM   #143
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"Li stanno consegnando. Ci lavora un mio amico che ora è in Danimarca per i collaudi. Però mi dice pure che 'sti danesi rompono il c...o pure se al posto di una brugola trovano una vite normale..."
What does that mean? I don't speak Italian
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Old January 17th, 2009, 12:01 AM   #144
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"They are delivering them. A friend of mine works on this trains, and he is now in Danemark for trials. But he says that Danish protest even if they found a hex key ("brugola") instead of a standard screw ("vite")."
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Old January 17th, 2009, 08:27 AM   #145
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I'm hardly an expert on Italian, coccodrillo, but I think you translated brugola out of context. Yes, it can mean hex key, but I think here it is shorthand for "vite a brugola" - i.e. a bolt. The poster means to say that one cannot even substute a bolt for a screw without the Danes complaining. That said...

...I didn't mean to go bellyaching about the feud between my native Denmark and AnsaldoBreda. Countries differ. I just meant to imply that if Italian railway enthousiasts find it bizarre that DSB does some pretty tight project management once a delivery is four years overdue then they might also.... shall we say, be less devoted to punctuality than their Swiss neighbours.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 09:47 PM   #146
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It can't be a coincidence that recently more and more Italian local railway companies are buying their new trains from Stadler Rail in Switzerland.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:38 AM   #147
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It can't be a coincidence that recently more and more Italian local railway companies are buying their new trains from Stadler Rail in Switzerland.
absolutely everybody is buying from Stadler: Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Finnland, Argentina, probably more

either they are very good at corrupting politicians or they make a kick-ass mid-distance commuter train that is fast, light, innovative and regional
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Old January 18th, 2009, 04:36 AM   #148
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It will be interested in the future which criterias use to measure a tunnel because tunnels become more and more complex than a tube. The brenner basis tunnel with the main entrance will be 55 km but with the Innsbruck bypass it will be 62.7 km, more than the 57 km GBT.
The Swiss wouldn´t build such an enormous project without a "Plan B" to secure the number one position of the GBT.
There is an option to connect the GBT with the planned new Axentunnel in the north ("Bergvariante lang") . The required infrastructure in the GBT for the connection is approved and will be build or is already completed.

In German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axentunnel

This would mean a total length of 75km.

So, in this dick/tunnel-measuring-contest Switzerland can´t be beaten by Austria/Italy with their BBT even in the extended version. Nice try anyway.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 06:30 AM   #149
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Well, Deadeye, I have also heard of this northern extension of the Gotthardt tunnel. In fact I think (?) it might even push the total length of the tunnel above 80 km.

Whether it's something to be proud of for the Swiss is perhaps less certain. You see, there's no topographic reason to drill these extra 20 km of tunnel. It was decided because of a messy political process involving a gaggle of NIMBIES from Kanton Uri who thought that the landscape around Erstfeld couldn't possibly be scarred by a HS railway line. The matter got emotional - this valley (the "Urnertal") after all being the heartland of Wilhelm Thell - and the local populists plastered the country with posters showing their emblematic bull (the "Urnerstier") being cut in two and bleeding from the mouth. In the end the government caved in and agreed to create an expensive gallery tunnel with no other practical purpose than to save the local peasants the ignomy of the noise.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 06:47 AM   #150
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The Swiss wouldn´t build such an enormous project without a "Plan B" to secure the number one position of the GBT.
There is an option to connect the GBT with the planned new Axentunnel in the north ("Bergvariante lang") . The required infrastructure in the GBT for the connection is approved and will be build or is already completed.

In German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axentunnel

This would mean a total length of 75km.

So, in this dick/tunnel-measuring-contest Switzerland can´t be beaten by Austria/Italy with their BBT even in the extended version. Nice try anyway.

actually, it is possible that they will also lengthen it at the other end so the tunnel would come out at biasca instead of bodio

then there is the proposed tunnel around bellinzona, after which it would emerge south of bellinzona heading straight for the ceneri tunnel

not to mention the zimmerberg tunnel near zürich.......
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Old January 18th, 2009, 06:50 AM   #151
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Well, Deadeye, I have also heard of this northern extension of the Gotthardt tunnel. In fact I think (?) it might even push the total length of the tunnel above 80 km.

Whether it's something to be proud of for the Swiss is perhaps less certain. You see, there's no topographic reason to drill these extra 20 km of tunnel. It was decided because of a messy political process involving a gaggle of NIMBIES from Kanton Uri who thought that the landscape around Erstfeld couldn't possibly be scarred by a HS railway line. The matter got emotional - this valley (the "Urnertal") after all being the heartland of Wilhelm Thell - and the local populists plastered the country with posters showing their emblematic bull (the "Urnerstier") being cut in two and bleeding from the mouth. In the end the government caved in and agreed to create an expensive gallery tunnel with no other practical purpose than to save the local peasants the ignomy of the noise.


these NIMBIES as you call them are the _very reason_ to like switzerland
these kind of projects make switzerland what it is, and its not a bad thing at all, far from it
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Old January 18th, 2009, 07:05 AM   #152
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Gramercy, nothing will ever bring me to like people who put their personal grubby interests over the good of society - Swiss or otherwise. This is probably why I, a consummate Scandinavian Protestant, would not want to be citizen of a federal country. That said, I lived in CH for a few years in my youth and I quite liked the place - perhaps because I stayed in Basle surrounded by people who had a much poorer opinion of "die verkrusteten Innerschweizer" than I did.

More to the point, I think your previous posting about additional tunnels was a bit imprecise. I haven't seen plans of a prolongation to Biasca - on the contrary the're investing a lot of money in a conventional track down that way. However, you're right that the long-term idea is to eventually create a tunnel from somewhere south of Biasca to Camorino. To this you may add one more tunnel on the northern side: the Rigitunnel. As the name says it's supposed to lead the train underneath Mount Rigi, i.e. bypassing Arth-Goldau to the south. But... this is a VERY long-term prospect.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:13 PM   #153
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actually, it is possible that they will also lengthen it at the other end so the tunnel would come out at biasca instead of bodio
No, there are no cavers at the southern end, building a branch would need to close the tunnel for years and to destroy hundreds of emters of finished tunnel.

And it has already been built an 8 km line south of the GBT on the floor of the valley.

The planned Axentunnel would sho0rten travel times and allow more regional trains on the old line. But it is not urgent as, for example, the Wisenberg tunnel on the line to Basel, useful to reduce "overcrowding" on the existing line (400 trains/day today, 500 in the near future).
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:59 PM   #154
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I would agree with you that one of the highest priorities on the north/south axis should now be the Wisenberg Tunnel, but i would add to the list Zimmerberg 2. The latter had even been decided upon, then dropped, and Wisenberg was hotly considered for the second stage of the Bahn 2000 infrastructure programme, then also dropped. Why? No, don't tell me.... If during the economic crisis Switzerland needs to increase its export, maybe you could simply export Christoph Blocher to some inhospitable place?

On your point about the Axentunnel, I didn't say that it will not increase travel speeds. Of course it will. My point was that you could achieve the same speeds through a conventional HSL between Erstfeld and Arth-Goldau. Such lines have been drawn in similarly mountainous regions in Spain, but... apparently this is not an option "im Urnertal".
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Old January 18th, 2009, 02:55 PM   #155
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You can only have conventional line from Erstfeld to Flüelen and from Brunnen to Arth-Goldau. The topography between Flüelen and Brunnen only allow HSR in tunnels.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 02:55 PM   #156
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I would like to export C.B., but unfortunately I can't.

The Axen tunnel is a tunnel between Brunnen and Flüelen, not in the Uri valley. Uri's inhabitants propose to link the Axen and Gotthard Basis tunnels via another tunnel instead of building a line in the plain. Is this combination of Axen+Connection+GBT tunnels that would be 80 km long.

There are some maps here: http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSB...76/2_s1_d2.pdf (in German), but the chosen option is not shown.

And Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axentunnel (use the bar at the end of page to see other tunnels of the line).
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:15 PM   #157
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Oh du Frust, ich habe meine Schweizergeographie verlernt! (Transl.: "Bloody hell, I've forgotten what I used to know about Swiss geography".) My previous posting contained no less than two minimacs, in that I thought the Urnertal valley runs all the way down to Brunnen & I confused the Axen Tunnel and the "Bergvariante Lang" that the locals have so pleaded for. Damn!

As a consolation offer, take a look at what I found. A much more detailed version of the map in the document you linked:
http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSB...enfuehrung.pdf.

And a question: does this imply that the tunnelers are currently going through a lot of trouble preparing the northern tunnel for an extension WITHOUT anybody knowing for sure whether this extension will be built? Du meine Güte... and this was the reason they held back the beginning of works on the Erstfeld section for more than a year.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #158
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The cavern for the junction (Abzweiger Uri Süd in the map) near the nothern portal will be built also to manage protests in the Uri valley.

Anyway, the the Erstfeld section will be completed probably before the FaidoSedrun one, where boring is progressing slowly. Such caverns have been or will be built also in the Lötschberg, Zimmerberg and Ceneri base tunnels.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #159
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So, in this dick/tunnel-measuring-contest...
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Baubeginn für den neuen Axentunnel wird nicht vor dem Jahr 2030 sein.
All dicks being measured in this contest will be old and limp (but used in the right way? probably not) by that time...
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Old January 18th, 2009, 04:44 PM   #160
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Gramercy, nothing will ever bring me to like people who put their personal grubby interests over the good of society - Swiss or otherwise. This is probably why I, a consummate Scandinavian Protestant, would not want to be citizen of a federal country. That said, I lived in CH for a few years in my youth and I quite liked the place - perhaps because I stayed in Basle surrounded by people who had a much poorer opinion of "die verkrusteten Innerschweizer" than I did.
there is a balance to everything, and what you may percieve to be self interest over the interest of the society may actually serve the greater good

i certainly wouldnt want to live in a country which can demolish km2s after km2s just to make way for another factory...or in a country where if you hould a village meeting 2 ppl show up (the burgermeister and the priest, perhaps)

like it or not, swiss citizens are a hell of a lot more _conscientious_ of what is actually happening around them, much more so than (imho) _any_ other populus. the reason is perhaps their direct democracy and all the elections that they hold

i find this system more competitive, more efficient and eventually more _humane_ than other systems, because it _forces_ cooperation in a democratic arena instead of sheer power or money forcing its way

best example of the latter would be the uk where they have 15 or so billion pounds to build a gigantic railroad tunnel under london but they havent been able to put together a decent high speed line from london to manchaster, let alone glasgow
or the new third runway at heathrow: labour is licking the feet of big business and to hell with local communities. not to mention the fact that they would be much better served as a country if they had an airport similar in size somewhere between birmingham and manchaster, they could easily add a second runway to stanstead as well




Quote:
More to the point, I think your previous posting about additional tunnels was a bit imprecise. I haven't seen plans of a prolongation to Biasca - on the contrary the're investing a lot of money in a conventional track down that way. However, you're right that the long-term idea is to eventually create a tunnel from somewhere south of Biasca to Camorino. To this you may add one more tunnel on the northern side: the Rigitunnel. As the name says it's supposed to lead the train underneath Mount Rigi, i.e. bypassing Arth-Goldau to the south. But... this is a VERY long-term prospect.
yes, it appears i was wrong about a bodio-biasca section, but the rest would still be very impressive (6 more possible tunnels from basle to lugano..)

and of course its a long term plan, those nimbies are hanging on to their money, the [email protected]
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