daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 18th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #161
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
If during the economic crisis Switzerland needs to increase its export, maybe you could simply export Christoph Blocher to some inhospitable place?
perhaps to the land where the black sheep live
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 18th, 2009, 04:50 PM   #162
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

so, any one of you guys/gals ever heard of Swissmetro?
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 04:58 PM   #163
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Beatiful, but extremely expensive, dream.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Highcliff liked this post
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 06:01 PM   #164
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Beatiful, but extremely expensive, dream.
to be honest, im not convinced of that anymore

principally because the new japanes maglev will have 60 % of it in tunnels

if swissmetro were to initially only cover switzerland, a single tunnel would be enough, not to mention the smaller diameter required for the swissmetro type of maglev as opposed to the japanese maglev. smaller diameter and a single tube vs. double / two tubes means a whopping 60-70 % less volume excavated, therefore much lower costs
(another way of looking at it: for 50 kms of traditional two tubes + connecting tubes you can build 120-150 kms of swissmetro tunnels..)

now add to that the partial vacuum which at 500 kph would use 1/3rd or less the power needed for the japanese version, which makes the operation much more profitable

and as i look at it, speed could probably easily be upped to 6-7-800 kph, depending only on the breaking distances and the power vs. profitabilty


but i realize theres not much chance of it ever happening
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 07:06 PM   #165
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

There is a double track line, Basel-Olten, with 500 trains per day (suburban, intercity, freight), but no money to build a second line to decrease congestion. This line include a ~10 km tunnel, the Wisenberg. And if there is no money for 10 km of tunnel, there is surely less for an entirely undergorund 300 km line.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Highcliff liked this post
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 08:40 PM   #166
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Erm... now you've lost me, but then I'm still smarting from my last geographic mistakes. I thought so faithfully that the "Long Version" had been retained after public hearings, according to which the northern starting point of the tunnel would be just outside Liestal. If so, the tunnel would be anywhere from 17 to 20 km long, I think - yet you said the Wisenbergtunnel will be only about 10 km. Have I missed something?
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2009, 04:03 PM   #167
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

I don't know any project of the Wisenberg tunnel. The existing Hauenstein Base Tunnel is about 8 km long, so I thought that the Wisenberg had a similar length.

Do you know documents or maps about the proposed variants of the Wisenberg tunnel?
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Highcliff liked this post
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2009, 09:13 PM   #168
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Well, SBB was asked to evaluate several lines, as can seen from this link (I trust it you read German?): http://www.baselland.ch/mit-bud_2003....300441.0.html. As for the rest, there was media reports a few years back that the authorities had come down in favour of the "Lang Niveau" version, but thereafter the tunnel fell out of, first, Bahn2000 and the ZEB, so I suppose the issue just died.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 04:01 AM   #169
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I'm hardly an expert on Italian, coccodrillo, but I think you translated brugola out of context. Yes, it can mean hex key, but I think here it is shorthand for "vite a brugola" - i.e. a bolt. The poster means to say that one cannot even substute a bolt for a screw without the Danes complaining. That said....
The poster means to say that one cannot even substute a bolt for an (allen) screw without the Danes complaining. That said..

Dear Hans,

How diplomatic and polite was your rendering of " rompere il c...o" with "complaining".

A very cute and clever use of the translator's licence.

I did enjoy it!
Cheers!.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 04:25 AM   #170
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
so, any one of you guys/gals ever heard of Swissmetro?
Yes, of course.
The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?


Pity they were both rejected!

I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology.

The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines.
So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is also not only compatible with the existing rail network but also cheaper and tested.

The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...

I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)

On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open.

In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
Who knows?
__________________

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 02:28 AM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 05:32 AM   #171
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Yes, of course.
The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?


Pity they were both rejected!

I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology.

The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines.
So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is not also compatible with the existing rail network but cheaper and tested.

The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...

I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)

On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open.
In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
Who knows?

It's basically a live or die situation for the French to maintain conventional rail since the French(Alstrom) does not have the technology at hand and will take them decades to develop so if a project that utilizes Maglev comes to realization within the next ten~fifteen years they can't even enter the tender process.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.

Highcliff liked this post
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 07:24 PM   #172
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
It's basically a live or die situation for the French to maintain conventional rail since the French(Alstrom) does not have the technology at hand and will take them decades to develop so if a project that utilizes Maglev comes to realization within the next ten~fifteen years they can't even enter the tender process.
Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family , and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro.

Perhaps, the second and third AGV generations might have top speeds of 380km/h.


Also, Alstom might manage to built double decker and and tilting versions.

But, above commercial speeds of 400km/h, and for transcontinental fast land journey, for goods and passengers, sooner or later, maglev will take over.

The problem is that the Japanese maglev and conventional (Japanese) HS trains are ostracised in Europe because the Japanese have not open the market to the European competitors.

On the other hand, China has managed to acquire all Western and Eastern railway and maglev (Siemens) technologies, and sooner or later, the Chinese will be able to export both type of trains.... which if not greatly improved, they certainly will be cheaper.

We shall see.

regards
__________________

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by joseph1951; February 1st, 2009 at 03:07 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 08:51 PM   #173
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family, and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro.
Yes, I would agree. In fact I think it's almost a foregone conclusion: the AGV (or TGV Nouvelle Generation, as it was originally named) was developed specifically to face the competition from Siemens' Velaro. I don't think Alstom would have moved from prototype to commercialisation unless they were reliably assured that their product would be superior on a number of these parameters.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 09:30 PM   #174
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Yes, of course.
The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?


Pity they were both rejected!

I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology.

The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines.
So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is not also compatible with the existing rail network but cheaper and tested.

The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...

I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)

On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open.
In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
Who knows?
To reach that speed (571km/h) they had to have a 140km stretch of straight track that had a downhill section. This is as opposed to the Yamanashi Test line:


Chock full of tunnels and hills and only 42km long. A short portion of that needed to accelerate to full speed.

Mag-lev will be able to easily maintain a cruising speed of 500km/h. Yes, rail CAN go that fast, but it's pushing it.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 11:04 PM   #175
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family , and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro.
the Velaro came out in 2000, the AGV will be at least 10 years younger....and naturally better in some ways (even thought it is french )

what worries me is that siemens doesnt seem to be doing much

by this time they should have either a tilting version, or a double decker, or a faster version or a new version with significant improvements
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2009, 12:39 AM   #176
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
The problem is that the Japanese maglev and conventional (Japanese) HS trains are ostracised in Europe because the Japanese have not open the market to the European competitors.
This is completely bull.
If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements

The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.

Highcliff liked this post
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2009, 12:53 AM   #177
Dinivan
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Barcelona, Catalonia, EU
Posts: 683
Likes (Received): 7

it's the first time I hear the European market is closed, any proof to check veracity? news, or whatever... I think the european trains are better suited to european needs and that's it (and thank god for that, cos japanese trains are so much fugly...)
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Dinivan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2009, 02:29 AM   #178
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
This is completely bull.
If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements

The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.
FYI Hitachi high-speed trains now run in the UK.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2009, 02:31 AM   #179
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
FYI Hitachi high-speed trains now run in the UK.
Yes I know but that is because the British does not have a HSR industry in the first place and they were turned down the first time because the European mainland placed concerns of the train sets traveling on mainland soil.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.

Highcliff liked this post
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2009, 03:06 PM   #180
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Yes I know but that is because the British does not have a HSR industry in the first place and they were turned down the first time because the European mainland placed concerns of the train sets traveling on mainland soil.
well, whats it matter?
in 10 years time everyone will be supplied by.......china
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alps

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium