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Old September 3rd, 2008, 05:12 AM   #2841
HAWC1506
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By the way, here's a picture I took. This is the I-90 floating bridge on Lake Washington with the city of Bellevue to its Northeast:

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Old September 3rd, 2008, 11:37 AM   #2842
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Bellevue is like the 3rd most important business center in the metropolitan area, right? (after Seattle and Tacoma).
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:14 PM   #2843
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Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma in that order. Tacoma's business is mostly shipping and wood products, but does account for a lot of revenue.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #2844
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Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma in that order. Tacoma's business is mostly shipping and wood products, but does account for a lot of revenue.
Bellevue has one of the highest incomes in Washington State. It wouldn't really be wrong to say that Microsoft takes up half the city. Eddie Bauer, Amazon.com, Paccar shipping, T-mobile cellphone network all have headquarters in Bellevue. Microsoft has rented out a few buildings as well.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 03:19 AM   #2845
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If I can get a job at Boeing, I will move to Bellevue too
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Old September 4th, 2008, 08:27 AM   #2846
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Here's some random shots I took the other day while driving from my home near Milwaukee to Minocqua, WI (very Northern part of the state).




Roadwork through Fond Du Lac.




I'm not sure what those lines are for.



Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).

As far as the large center median, this is a good thing in the winter. You will see many cars (mostly suvs, as their owners seem to get way too confident in the snow) during snowfalls that have slid off the road into them. With barrier cables in the center of the median, the car would get stuck in the median, out of traffic's way, and unable to cross into oncoming traffic.

They have the small, concrete-barrier medians in Illinois. I saw a car only a few hundred feet ahead of me fishtail and slam into the barrier, only to flip over on the snowbank along the barrier. The car came back into traffic skidding on it's roof. This seems a whole lot less safe to me than the large median.

It also wouldn't kill our state to build some decent rest areas.

Last edited by He Named Thor; September 4th, 2008 at 08:46 AM.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 09:16 AM   #2847
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Originally Posted by He Named Thor View Post
Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).
Cable barriers are extremely dangerous to motorcyclists. Britain was a big proponent of cable barriers until someone in Scotland got sliced in half by the cables after falling off a motorcycle at high speed. They call it "cheesecutters." I personally prefer metal barriers, which strikes a nice balance between absorbing impact and safety for motorcyclists.

Also I noticed that there's a huge gap in the pavement between lanes. I guess Wisconsin has such cold winters that the gaps will get bigger. Americans need a new technique for paving roads, the current lane-by-lane system isn't working quite well in colder states.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 06:24 PM   #2848
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Cable barriers are extremely dangerous to motorcyclists. Britain was a big proponent of cable barriers until someone in Scotland got sliced in half by the cables after falling off a motorcycle at high speed. They call it "cheesecutters." I personally prefer metal barriers, which strikes a nice balance between absorbing impact and safety for motorcyclists.
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah I suppose that might be a problem.

Quote:
Also I noticed that there's a huge gap in the pavement between lanes. I guess Wisconsin has such cold winters that the gaps will get bigger. Americans need a new technique for paving roads, the current lane-by-lane system isn't working quite well in colder states.
The problem is how badly it screws up traffic to close both lanes at the same time. I couldn't imagine say, U.S. 41 going to two lanes. Many of our freeways are going to concrete though, so that might withstand the freezing temps better.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #2849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by He Named Thor View Post
Here's some random shots I took the other day while driving from my home near Milwaukee to Minocqua, WI (very Northern part of the state).

[snip]

Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).

As far as the large center median, this is a good thing in the winter. You will see many cars (mostly suvs, as their owners seem to get way too confident in the snow) during snowfalls that have slid off the road into them. With barrier cables in the center of the median, the car would get stuck in the median, out of traffic's way, and unable to cross into oncoming traffic.

They have the small, concrete-barrier medians in Illinois. I saw a car only a few hundred feet ahead of me fishtail and slam into the barrier, only to flip over on the snowbank along the barrier. The car came back into traffic skidding on it's roof. This seems a whole lot less safe to me than the large median.

It also wouldn't kill our state to build some decent rest areas.
Interestingly, only the parts of that trip between Stevens Point and Wausau (the last three images) and perhaps somewhere in metro Milwaukee (not pictured) were on actual interstates.



OTOH, US 41 (the first four images) will become an 'interstate' in a few years, when the needed upgrades are completed. WisDOT currently has no plans to try to add US 10 (images 5 and 6, at Fremont and Weyauwega, WI, respectively) to the I-system.

It is very interesting that with recent and ongoing upgrades, it is now shorter and faster (by about 10-15 minutes) to use US 45/41/45/10 (via Oshkosh) between the Zoo interchange in Milwaukee and I-39/US 10 in Stevens Point than it is to use the all-interstate routing via Madison (the current US 45 upgrade work closure between Winneconne and Winchester notwithstanding) - and word-of-mouth on that is fast spreading in the metro Milwaukee and Chicagoland areas - weekend northwoods vacationer traffic on that route is mushrooming.

BTW, those little 'ticks' on the pavement on I-39 are used by the Wisconsin State Patrol for speed limit enforcement, but ISTR that they sold off their airplanes a few years ago.



Mike

Last edited by mgk920; September 4th, 2008 at 06:38 PM.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #2850
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US 41 should become I-41 next year, with signs of I-41 being installed in 2009.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #2851
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US 41 should become I-41 next year, with signs of I-41 being installed in 2009.
To date I have heard nothing on what its number will be, except that WisDOT submitted '41', '55', '57' and a 3di for I-94 to AASHTO a couple of years ago. My pick would be '57', in that it best fits in with the existing nationwide numbering system. '57' would also allow the I-route to someday continue past Green Bay, perhaps along US 2 to I-75 at Saint Igance, MI, without otherwise disrupting highway numbering in Michigan.

As part of that, I would also reroute US 41 between Milwaukee and Green Bay to replace 'WI 57'.

Mike
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Old September 4th, 2008, 06:49 PM   #2852
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I think I-41 fits better, the I-43 is to it's east, and I-39 southwest.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 07:55 PM   #2853
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Not to mention that the route is already 'the 41' - I-41 is what it will be, the others (other than the 3di for I-94) would mean large amount of renumbering existing interstates.

Seeing as I-43 does a similar route and to the east, I-57 doesn't fit the system at all, as it would make I-43 look nearly as bad as I-99 numbering wise.

As it's busier than I-43, giving it a 3di number (I-x94 or I-x43) would seem odd, though the I-94 spur is just about bearable if there wasn't the perfect number in I-41. The number of the route doesn't change with I-41, just that it's an interstate and has different colour shields now and 41 fits perfectly between 39 and 43.

As for an extension of I-41 along US2 in Michigan, what's wrong with an extension of I-43, or even just having it as I-98 (and project it across WI to I-94)
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Old September 4th, 2008, 08:05 PM   #2854
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I knew 10 wasn't an Interstate, but I didn't know 41 wasn't. Hmm. It's gonna be wierd if it switches numbers. What do they need to do to make it an interstate?

I actually live North of Milwaukee, each freeway I drove on is pictured.

Does anyone else think that 41 over the lake in Oshkosh should be redone? Take some of that land out (I assume it was reclaimed or whatever that's called) and build a nice, good looking bridge. I guess it's not really necessary, but I'd like to see it done.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 10:12 PM   #2855
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I knew 10 wasn't an Interstate, but I didn't know 41 wasn't. Hmm. It's gonna be wierd if it switches numbers. What do they need to do to make it an interstate?

I actually live North of Milwaukee, each freeway I drove on is pictured.

Does anyone else think that 41 over the lake in Oshkosh should be redone? Take some of that land out (I assume it was reclaimed or whatever that's called) and build a nice, good looking bridge. I guess it's not really necessary, but I'd like to see it done.
I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.

Unlike others, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the interstate numbering plan (there is now a shortage of available 'odd' 2-digit numbers in the east and a surplus in the west) and have ZERO problems with logically extending a route number, even if, on the surface, such a numbering extension would violate that 'sanctity'.

ISTR that the biggest interstate deficiencies on US 41 regard median width, especially around Oshkosh. The substandard interchanges around Fond du Lac have been or are being replaced as I type this. There are also still some low-clearance bridges that have to be addressed. Over the next 5-10 years, WisDOT does have *FIRM* plans for upgrading US 41 to six lanes from WI 26 (interchange 113) in Oshkosh to Breezewood La/Bell St (interchange 129) in Neenah, including 8 lanes across the 'causeway'. That along with major planned US 41 upgrades in the Green Bay area and to US 10 in the Appleton/Neenah area over the same time period (assuming that Doyle and the legislature don't collectively screw up the Transport fund any more than it already is!) will cost as much as $750M.

WisDOT did study replacing that earth fill with a shore-to-shore bridge (mainly to allow blowing snow to go harmlessly under it, solving a vexing winter driving issue with that crossing), but rejected the idea, likely due to cost. Instead, the fill will be doubled in width with the new fill going onto its west side.

Mike

Last edited by mgk920; September 4th, 2008 at 10:22 PM.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 10:34 PM   #2856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.

Unlike others, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the interstate numbering plan (there is now a shortage of available 'odd' 2-digit numbers in the east and a surplus in the west) and have ZERO problems with logically extending a route number, even if, on the surface, such a numbering extension would violate that 'sanctity'.

ISTR that the biggest interstate deficiencies on US 41 regard median width, especially around Oshkosh. There are also still some low-clearance bridges that have to be addressed. Over the next 5-10 years, WisDOT does have *FIRM* plans for upgrading US 41 to six lanes from WI 26 (interchange 113) in Oshkosh and Breezewood La/Bell St (interchange 129) in Neenah, including 8 lanes across the 'causeway'. That along with major planned US 41 upgrades in the Green Bay area and to US 10 in the Appleton/Neenah area over the same time period (assuming that Doyle and the legislature don't collectively screw up the Transport fund any more than it already is!) will cost as much as $750M.

WisDOT did study replacing that earth fill with a shore-to-shore bridge (mainly to allow blowing snow to go harmlessly under it, solving a vexing winter driving issue with it), but rejected the idea, likely due to cost. Instead, the fill will be doubled in width with the new fill going onto its west side.

Mike

What is the issue with median width? Too wide, not wide enough?

I can't imagine that making the fill twice as big is cheaper than a friggen bridge. I suppose it's just dumping dirt. Still, it would've been nice to have a great bridge across the lake. Would certainly look better (disrupt the wildlife less too).

Imagine something like this across it:


Ahh well. They probably would've screwed it up anyway. I'm glad to see that (according to Wikipedia) that section is going to have more lanes. Merging onto it from 10?(I know it's not ten, it's that first exit North of the lake that if you take West connects with ten, the number escapes me) sucks.
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Old September 4th, 2008, 10:42 PM   #2857
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What is the issue with median width? Too wide, not wide enough?

I can't imagine that making the fill twice as big is cheaper than a friggen bridge. I suppose it's just dumping dirt. Still, it would've been nice to have a great bridge across the lake. Would certainly look better (disrupt the wildlife less too).

Imagine something like this across it:


Ahh well. They probably would've screwed it up anyway. I'm glad to see that (according to Wikipedia) that section is going to have more lanes. Merging onto it from 10?(I know it's not ten, it's that first exit North of the lake that if you take West connects with ten, the number escapes me) sucks.
The highway that connects at the north end of that causeway (interchange 120) is US 45 (was previously WI 110). *THAT* is another route numbering MESS that could be solved with US 41 getting an I-route number (think of the US 45 West Bend Spur becoming, let's say, 'I-357'). As part of the planned US 41 upgrades, that interchange will get full-speed flyover ramps for the major turn (US 41 to the south <-> US 45 to the northwest). The current closure on US 45 is to upgrade the section between WI 116 at Winneconne and US 10 at Winchester from two to four lanes, including the cutting down of a hill (needed extensive blasting).

I do very much like how WisDOT included 'TO US 10 WEST' on the BGSs (Big Green Signs) leading up to that interchange.

Mike
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Old September 4th, 2008, 11:07 PM   #2858
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The closest we've ever come to a car crash was in Seattle, when we were really horribly cut off there and didn't crash by mere seconds. The guy then cut us off again a few miles later!
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Old September 5th, 2008, 07:45 AM   #2859
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Did you report it? Such people shouldn't be driving.
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Old September 5th, 2008, 08:15 PM   #2860
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Quote:
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I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.
If you are going to renumber I-94 (a good idea if it wasn't for the cost of changing all those signs - I'd have the IN/MI portion as I-92), why not as I-41? You'd also have no problems in having an east-west freeway (Airport Freeway) signed as N-S and S-N at the same time, which strikes me as an odd thing to do when you complain about I-94 being a north south freeway.

Benefits of 41 over 57 -
No need to renumber many miles of freeway (I-94), though you can if you want.
Fits the pattern
Is the number at the moment - the locals can call it the same thing

Benefits of 57 over 41 -
Means that the rule over Interstates and US routes of the same number isn't broken (though it's not a problem, save a few miles in Milwaukee (renumber that bit of US41 to WI341)) - the US route would multiplex (unsigned) with the interstate of the same number - no confusion anyway

In short, there's no real argument for it to not be the first choice of I-41. IL might get a bit annoyed with renumbering US 41 to let I-41 take over I-94, but then they'd get a bit annoyed about having to cosign I-94 and I-57 under your idea, whereas I-41 doesn't have to mean that.
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