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Old November 23rd, 2009, 01:48 AM   #4961
Nexis
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Actually if you look at it , its in New Jersey , but its New York owned ,that may change in the next year or 2 Because Jersey Wants to use it in its Tourism plans , so will have sue to have there rights stripped , its really in New Jersey. I think NYC will give it up , since they can't even maintain there Gov' Most of there Hwys are crumbling and there fighting in Albany , so if NJ sued they'd run like babies
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 02:32 AM   #4962
J N Winkler
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Not gonna happen. New Jersey doesn't have a leg to stand on legally if it tries to sue New York for Liberty Island--and even in the Ellis Island lawsuit all it did was ask for the parts on landfill. New York will never agree to give up the right to say the Statue of Liberty is in New York.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 03:07 AM   #4963
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Why are you even arguing with me on this , i know more then you , i live here , you are making me MAD end of Discussion , NJ is more Powerful ATM , NYC GOV isn't in Mood to argue for things like that NO MORE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE , WE ARE GOING OFF TOPIC AND YOUR MAKING ME EXTREMELY MAD
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 04:07 AM   #4964
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The USSupremes ruled a few years back that the lines are as shown - Liberty Island is in New York, the 'natural' part of Ellis Island is in New York, the 'artificial' (landfill) part of Ellis Island is in New Jersey and the surrounding water up to the natural midpoint of the Hudson River is in New Jersey. Yes, it is two enclaves of New York surrounded by New Jersey.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled drive on the USofA's interstate highway system.



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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:57 AM   #4965
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Doesn't really matter in my mind. It is the property of the U.S. Perhaps we should move on.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 06:01 AM   #4966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Why are you even arguing with me on this , i know more then you , i live here , you are making me MAD end of Discussion , NJ is more Powerful ATM , NYC GOV isn't in Mood to argue for things like that NO MORE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE , WE ARE GOING OFF TOPIC AND YOUR MAKING ME EXTREMELY MAD
How so?

Either way, it doesn't really matter, I just thought those other welcome signs look better than the other one.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 09:10 AM   #4967
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I'm going with Winkler. The guy definitely knows his shit. Corrected me a few times, always learn something, completely objective. On the other side I sense bias and wishful thinking. One of the PDFs spells it out perfectly on a map a few pages down. Google has it right.

As for highways, I'm thinking the crumbling has to do with excessive usage and inability to shut down for repairs without impacting TONS of people and costing a lot of money. Sure such things can be repaired, like the Bay Bridge in SF somehow is trying to do it while remaining in operation, but when it is whole stretches of roads, it takes forever to do it. NYC has been a huge city by contemporary standards since before freeways existed, I'm amazed any major roads were able to be built, they were probably beefed up existing roads over time, but Im guessing here.
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Last edited by dl3000; November 23rd, 2009 at 09:19 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 09:39 AM   #4968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
NYC has been a huge city by contemporary standards since before freeways existed, I'm amazed any major roads were able to be built, they were probably beefed up existing roads over time, but Im guessing here.
Thanks to a guy named "Robert Moses". He designed and built nearly all expressways and parkways in the New York side of the metropolitan area. Only the first Westchester County Parkways weren't a thing of Moses I believe.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:41 PM   #4969
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Nexis: to answer your questions:

* When I saw your first post to the effect that all of Ellis and Liberty Islands were in NJ, I suspected you were wrong, so I went to Wikipedia to confirm whether you or I was correct. Wikipedia pretty much confirmed what I suspected.

* When I posted the links to Wikipedia and you reiterated your original claim, casting not entirely undeserved aspersions on Wikipedia's accuracy and reliability, I decided--as an exercise--to see if there were other, more reliable sources which would support Wikipedia's account. I found the original Supreme Court decision, which is as authoritative as it gets. I also found Google Maps, which agrees with Wikipedia, and the PDF from the NYC planning bureau website, which also agrees with Google Maps and Wikipedia. The crucial elements of Wikipedia's account are thus triple-sourced, which is one layer of substantiation over and above what is required for a statement to be presented in a newspaper article as factually true.

I am a historian by trade, and the key to what we do is gathering different sources and assessing their probative value as evidence. We do this by looking at what the sources say and how it relates to the points we have under consideration. We also look at all the reasons why we should, or should not, consider the source reliable. You would have been quite well within your rights to attack pretty much all the evidence I presented. For example, you could have rejected Google Maps on the grounds that its presentation of boundaries is often inaccurate. You could have rejected the NYC planning bureau PDF on grounds that it is a biased source (but this would have raised other questions: why would it be in NYC's interest to diffuse factually inaccurate information? What if I produce a PDF from an official New Jersey source which agrees with the NYC documentation?). You would have been entirely right to point out that I provided no primary source evidence (which would consist, probably, of online facsimiles of the 1664 charter and the 1834 bistate agreement) to substantiate the claim that Liberty Island is in New York. But statements like "i know more then you," "NJ is more Powerful ATM," etc. have no evidentiary value whatsoever. It is not on point; length of time spent in NJ and familiarity with its affairs has no relationship to the question of who owns the two islands.

Others have been kind enough to agree with me, but the fact is, I can be wrong. On a number of occasions in the past, I have been shown to be so. So my challenge to you is: if you think I am wrong, produce the documentation which will prove I am wrong. I don't care if you do it in this thread, open another thread on SkyscraperCity where it will be on-topic, or do it by PM.

Now, regarding topic drift on this thread, one can be either part of the problem, or part of the solution. So I am posting a number of pictures of Interstate signs from the report of a 1967 Congressional inquiry into freeway guide signing.

First picture demonstrates the problem of matching downward-pointing arrows to the lanes to which they refer (I think it comes from an early version of the East Los Angeles Interchange):



I think this style of advance guide sign was used on the New York State Thruway:



One of the experts who testified before Congress pointed out this sign as an example of a misleading message. The message this sign tries to convey is equivalent to that of its eventual replacement, which had US 101 and I-5 shields above "San Diego," with no downward-pointing arrows. With the downward-pointing arrows, however, this sign encourages drivers to think that the left lane goes to I-5, middle lane goes to San Diego, and right-hand lane goes to US 101.



This sign (precise location not known to me, but almost certainly somewhere in Caltrans District 8) was used as an example of message overload. Many of the US routes shown were dumped in 1964.



This sign shows Virginia's old and misleading design of exit tab. It is misleading firstly because the main sign panel uses "EXITS" in the plural, but the tab sign uses just "EXIT." What the tab sign does not say, but a modern exit tab would say, is that there are two exits up ahead with letter suffixes. At the interchange itself, the separate exits would have cardinal direction suffixes (also signed on tabs mounted beneath the main sign panel)--11S and 11N in this case.



I am not aware that these Congressional hearings--whose report is nowadays very hard to find; I have found just one copy, in the Davis Transportation Library at Berkeley--had a direct influence on guide sign design. However, the people testifying included nearly all the luminaries of human-factors-based traffic research, and the fact that the hearings were held at all must have been taken as an indication that Congress was concerned the guide signing system was not as effective as it might be. The MUTCD now includes provisions designed to prevent the problems shown on these signs.

Last edited by J N Winkler; November 23rd, 2009 at 05:56 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:43 PM   #4970
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(Duplicative text deleted)
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 06:18 PM   #4971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
It is misleading firstly because the main sign panel uses "EXITS" in the plural, but the tab sign uses just "EXIT."
Isn't "EXITS" a verb?
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 07:01 PM   #4972
Billpa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Isn't "EXITS" a verb?
It can be.

The man exits the highway in his car.

or just plural of exit.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 07:22 PM   #4973
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Interesting, I thought I-287 was named the "Cross Westchester Expressway". But maybe that's too long to put on the signs.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 07:38 PM   #4974
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It is , they should rename it the "Pain in the ass Expressway" Due to The Numerous long last construction projects on it.

Here's some of my Most Favorite Signs in NYC / Philly Metros for Interstates

New Jersey

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


New York

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Pennsylvania

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Connecticut

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


~Corey
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 08:30 PM   #4975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billpa View Post
It can be.

The man exits the highway in his car.

or just plural of exit.
I know, but what is it in that case? I thought that word was always a verb on such signs. But not on signs like the small sign below (EXIT 11) where it's of course a noun.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 09:59 PM   #4976
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Unless it is obviously part of a verb phrase, "exit" is better interpreted as a noun, used in the plural when there are multiple exits. The problem with the Virginia sign is that the main panel admits there are multiple exits while the bottom tab uses the singular and uses just one exit number. Therefore, the tab "hides" orientation information which is later shown at the exit, which leaves drivers little time to use it to make a decision.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 10:46 PM   #4977
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You're right, I should've just looked at one photo above it where it's "EXIT 1/4 MI". However, "EXITS" doesn't make sense to me; how can two exits exit at the same time (in 1/4 mile)? Wouldn't that be one exit then?
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Old November 24th, 2009, 02:39 AM   #4978
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Major problems in Milwaukee, WI

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/70541002.html

Several bridges at the I-94/894/US 45 interchange (the 'Zoo' interchange) on Milwaukee's west side are in danger of immediate failure and will be replaced with temporary structures over the next few months. The entire interchange is scheduled for complete replacement starting in about 2014 - if financing is able to hold (the state legislature/governor have been playing politics with the transport fund and severely raiding it to cover general-fund deficits in recent years, so I'm NOT holding my breath on this one).

Not only for metro Milwaukee, but the continued health of this interchange is of critical economic importance to the Fond du Lac/Oshkosh/Appleton, WI area - it is our major outlet to the south.



Also, had the Milwaukee metro freeway system been built as planned, this would be much more of an annoyance than a critical economic threat, as due to those cancellations the system does not have the redundancy needed to prevent these sorts of things from gumming up the whole region.



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Old November 24th, 2009, 10:09 AM   #4979
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This is only the beginning. Over the next 10 years, many bridges and structures are over 50 years in lifetime and have operated far over original design capacity during the last 4 decades. I've read the I-295 in NJ had a capacity of 40,000 at 4 lane sections and 75,000 at six-lane sections. If that count for other freeways too, there's a problem because there are many four-lane sections that carry in excess of 80,000 AADT and six-lane sections that carry over 130,000 AADT.
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Old November 24th, 2009, 12:43 PM   #4980
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Bigass:

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