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Old January 3rd, 2010, 12:49 PM   #5101
Danielk2
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Way too much information on the sign. Looks like something they made in Austria
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #5102
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Northern Beltline work set to begin
By Thomas Spencer -- The Birmingham News
December 13, 2009, 5:55AM

Michelle and Richard McDonald pose on their property on Hubbard Lake Road in Trussville. Their land is under threat from the development of the Northern Beltline.

With construction scheduled to begin possibly within a year on the first segment of the long-discussed Northern Beltline around Birmingham, supporters and opponents of the 52-mile, $3.4 billion roadway still are debating the project's merits.

As a road project, the Northern Beltline isn't the most pressing or effective way to improve current congestion problems. A recent analysis by the Regional Planning Commission of Greater Birmingham ranked it No. 53 out of 94 projects evaluated.

But the road, which would be dubbed I-959, appeals to the elected officials and business groups for its potential to open new areas for growth, spreading the development seen in southern Jefferson and northern Shelby County to western and northern communities.

"You open up a world of possibilities," said Tom Howard, the general manager of U.S. Steel's real estate division. "We think it is one of the largest economic development projects ever for the region."

U.S. Steel, the county's largest landowner, owns vast tracts of land that would be opened for development.

Opponents, which include environmentalists and a grass-roots group mainly composed of people in the path of the beltline, counter that the project is unnecessary and that the benefits of the new development primarily will flow to a handful of large companies that own land along the route while pulling investment away from the developed inner city, which continues to lose population.

"Why are they choosing the longest, most spiraling route?" asked Michelle McDonald, whose family would have to leave 300 acres near Clay that's been in the family for four generations to make way for the beltline. "It is going to benefit a few wealthy landowners."

A review of property records confirms that the bulk of the land is largely held by large corporate interests. Much of it is former mining land held by companies such as U.S. Steel, Drummond Co., Walter Energy and Oak Grove Land Co. Alawest, a Northport-based company, also has acquired large holdings that are now managed for timber.

Representatives of those companies favor the beltline's development for its traffic benefits, but also for the potential to open new industrial and, in places, residential development sites. Paul Vercher, manager for public policy and governmental affairs for U.S. Steel, said the expected growth would benefit the region as a whole."You're right. It is about economic development. And what's wrong with that?" he asked. "Economic development is new jobs and rising incomes, better housing, attracting new people."

Beth Stewart, executive director of the Cahaba River Society, counters that, by embracing the Northern Beltline, the region is devoting limited federal and state money to creating growth on the fringes, while the community already has a huge investment in existing infrastructure in the inner city.

"In 30 years, when the results of those investments are on the ground, will people want to move to and bring businesses to a region that is extremely spread out and ever more dependent on automobiles?" she asked. "Or will people and jobs be more attracted to regions that are compact, with excellent public transportation options, and thus more energy efficient with lower cost of living and doing business?"

Officials at the Alabama Department of Transportation readily agree that room for growth was a factor in choosing the beltline route.
Don Vaughn, the Alabama Department of Transportation's chief engineer, said connecting the beltline to the eastern end of Interstate 459 to form a true loop would have been best for traffic.

"That would make a lot of sense from a traffic service standpoint," he said.
But north of I-459 in that area are densely populated neighborhoods such as Huffman. Crafting a route there would have required far more people to give up their homes and businesses.

Another alternative branching off north of I-459 but south of Trussville was evaluated. That route was shorter and was predicted to divert more traffic from downtown, but the department settled on the route where land would be cheaper to acquire and the route would give the most space for growth, according to Vaughn.

But because the outer route is much longer, the total project will cost more.
The leadership in most communities along most of the Northern Beltline route strongly support the project. Hueytown Mayor Delor Baumann sees great potential. "There is a lot of room for growth in this side of the county.

It would be huge for the city of Hueytown." But in Clay, where the eastern end would begin, the community is sharply divided.

"If they could go elsewhere, that would be fine." said Clay Mayor Ed McGuffie. "We want to protect what we've got."

Folks in the area, McGuffie said, aren't eager for rapid growth. They'd like to see Clay remain a quiet bedroom community, away from the hustle and bustle.

A six-lane interstate cutting through the community would take homes and displace families that have been in the area for generations, and without offering much benefit in return, he said.Michelle McDonald said four households of her family would have to move to make room for the beltline.

"We are sitting where they want to put the interchange," she said. "They want to take everything we have." She said she might have been able to accept the price of progress if she believed the roadway was necessary and the route well-chosen, but she doesn't.

X factor

Transportation planners say that, within the next five years, as Corridor X is tied into I-65, traffic congestion on the convergence of I-20/59 and I-65 will worsen, adding an additional 1,885 trucks per day. In the long term, the beltline should provide some relief, decreasing traffic by 10 percent to 15 percent in the city center, according to estimates.

However, other possibilities for realigning and interconnecting the inner city interstates might provide more benefit for less cost, said Darrell Howard, principal transportation planner at the Regional Planning Commission of Greater Birmingham. When looked at as a solution to current traffic congestion, the beltline isn't at the top of the list.

"The Northern Beltline as far as a regional priority ranks somewhere in the middle," Darrell Howard said. "It doesn't address very much of the existing roadway congestion and therefore didn't rate well on congestion elimination, which is half of the total ranking score. Its impact to the mobility of other roadways would be fairly small."What makes the beltline project possible is an expected flow of federal funds -- in this case a Congressionally-directed appropriation through the Appalachian Development Highway System. That money can be spent only on the beltline and can't be diverted to meet other needs.

However, the funding is in danger at the moment. The transportation bill pending before Congress includes a paragraph that would limit funding to $500 million, far short of the $3.4 billion ALDOT estimates will be needed to build the beltline. U.S. Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, is trying to have the cap removed.

Road projects funded in this way bother David Hartgen, a senior fellow at the nonprofit, free-market think tank the Reason Foundation and emeritus professor of transportation studies at the University of North Carolina Charlotte. Projects are selected on politics, rather than their transportation merits. And when 80 percent of the money is available from Washington and with the state committed to drawing every federal dollar available, communities can't resist and don't weigh the real cost against the expected benefit, he said.

"That is part of the corruption we are in nationally," Hartgen said.
After reviewing the projected traffic volumes on the route, Hartgen said most of it merited only four lanes, rather than the six planned.
It's a criticism of the beltline plan that has also drawn the attention of local road planners. Bill Foisy, director of planning at the Regional Planning Commission of Greater Birmingham, said a four-lane parkway likely could carry anticipated traffic in most stretches and would be more accessible and less intrusive for the communities it passes through."There should be more community based-planning," Foisy said. "But DOT's approach is design, engineer, announce and defend."

Vercher disagreed with the suggestion that a parkway would be more appropriate, considering the development opportunities. "The interstate designation is huge," he said. "For a lot of national firms, interstate access is required." The Birmingham Business Alliance, the organization formed with the merger of the chamber of commerce and the Metropolitan Development board, last week threw its weight behind the beltline. Dalton Smith, the group's executive director, said he's heard the arguments that the beltline would add to the drain on the inner city, but he doesn't buy it.

"We do think redevelopment in the urban core is very important, but we don't think development of the beltline and a strong downtown are mutually exclusive," he said.

Roads and reshaping

There is no doubt that the interstate system, its urban expressways and ring beltways, have reshaped communities across the country, said Ray Mohl, a University of Alabama at Birmingham history professor who has studied the development of the Interstate Highway System.
But the roads didn't cause decentralization, he said. That already was going on. They did make that movement easier, though, he said. It was central city leaders who saw urban expressways as a salvation, a tool for slum clearance and central city revitalization. But the results often didn't live up to expectations, Mohl said.

Hartgen also disagreed with opponents who say the beltline would create an additional drain on inner-city Birmingham. People will continue to leave the urban core unless problems with crime and schools are fixed, he said.
In Birmingham, between 1970 and 2008, population dropped from more than 300,000 to 228,798, down more than 70,000 people, according to U.S. Census estimates. Hoover had 688 people in 1970. By 2008, through annexation and the development that spread along I-459, I-65 and U.S. 280, Hoover was home to an estimated 71,020.

At U.S. Steel, Tom Howard said he expected the western end of the beltline to develop differently from the I-459 corridor, with more industrial parks taking advantage of large parcels that have easy interstate access. There likely would be pockets of residential development, but not to the extent seen along the southern ring, he said.

Ed McMahon, a senior resident fellow at the Urban Land Institute, said he doubts trends of the past will continue in the future. According to ULI real estate surveys, property values that have dropped most in the recent downturn have been in the suburbs farthest from the urban core.

Though gas prices are down due to a drop in demand, high prices inevitably will return, McMahon said. He wondered whether people will continue to look for homes far away from their jobs."There is a real question going forward," McMahon said.

A graduate of John Carroll High School with a master's degree from UAB, McMahon's first job was working for Operation New Birmingham. He argues that the region has a tremendous investment in existing infrastructure in areas that ought to be redeveloped, creating a more compact and competitive region.

"Building beltways as an economic development tool is last-century thinking," McMahon said.

News staff writer Jeff Hansen contributed to this report.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:33 AM   #5103
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Way too much information on the sign. Looks like something they made in Austria
They've Should have made the sign easier.
Exit 15 B : Belleville , Paterson , Passaic
Exit 15A : Newark , Downtown , Arena ,& Ironbound
Exit 14B : MLK blvd , it should have NJT sticker instead of the word , Broad Street Station, & all the Colleges and University are in University Heights , thus it should say University Heights.

I don't know why they made that sign complicated. But they are redoing the entire Interchange, so hopefully thats not a permeate sign.

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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #5104
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I-959: What a colossally bad idea!
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #5105
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I-959? I thought the Northern Beltline was to be I-422.

I also doubt the necessity of this beltline. It's not that much better than taking the I-20/I-59 although widening that elevated part through central Birmingham would be problematic. It depends on suburban development in the area, which seems to have been mostly done south of Birmingham, and that's why I-459 was constructed.

One has to keep in mind Jefferson County has barely grown over the past 50 years. Between 1960 and 2000, the county grew from 635,000 to 662,000 inhabitants.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; January 6th, 2010 at 01:54 PM.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 11:53 AM   #5106
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How about some North Carolina...






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Old January 7th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #5107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I-959? I thought the Northern Beltline was to be I-422.

I also doubt the necessity of this beltline. It's not that much better than taking the I-20/I-59 although widening that elevated part through central Birmingham would be problematic. It depends on suburban development in the area, which seems to have been mostly done south of Birmingham, and that's why I-459 was constructed.

One has to keep in mind Jefferson County has barely grown over the past 50 years. Between 1960 and 2000, the county grew from 635,000 to 662,000 inhabitants.
I thought it was slated to be I-422 also, but then again I-22 is not yet complete so who knows. Its not the worst idea in the world, but the current routing might render the highway useless. Birmingham needs a complete bypass to take truck traffic away from downtown, and the outdated I-20/[email protected] interchange.

Also the northern beltline is routed though mostly rural areas, so the real winners in this project is the large corporate landowners along the route.

BTW I-459 was completed before the growth that took off south of Birmingham.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #5108
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BTW I-459 was completed before the growth that took off south of Birmingham.
Yes, that's called spatial planning. In most cases, after 20 years of congestion, the idea of a new road pops up, but then they found out all good routes are already completely urbanized and the construction cost is increased 10 times as opposed to an early construction, or the route is not constructed at all. They have that problem now in Atlanta and Chicago for instance.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 10:30 PM   #5109
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NC Pics
Nice pictures. North Carolina is one of the fastest growing states in the eastern United States, and is also improving a lot of roads, although there seems to be some kind of Durham/Raleigh vs Charlotte rivalry.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 12:51 AM   #5110
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NC is also planning to build an Interstate Rail network , I must say they are a impressive state.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 08:47 AM   #5111
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what is the status of I-22? Kind of a cool project, its not like a new cross-country interstate gets built everyday

Anyways I live in central Texas and have been watching our new tollroads go up. Still none of them are useful to me, the road I rely on is still a rural 2 lane route. Grr...I will not pay money to drive out of my way either.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #5112
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One of my favorite stacks: I-10/US 90/I-35 in San Antonio, TX
[IMG]http://i47.************/vcyws6.jpg[/IMG]

Interchange in Miami:
[IMG]http://i48.************/hrbytu.jpg[/IMG]

Depressed I-71 in Cincinnati.
[IMG]http://i48.************/5yg5xs.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 9th, 2010, 12:19 AM   #5113
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Quote:
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what is the status of I-22? Kind of a cool project, its not like a new cross-country interstate gets built everyday

Anyways I live in central Texas and have been watching our new tollroads go up. Still none of them are useful to me, the road I rely on is still a rural 2 lane route. Grr...I will not pay money to drive out of my way either.
I-22 is almost complete in Alabama. All that remains is the interchange with I-65 which is projected to be the most expensive in ALDOT history. Target completion date is 2012-2013.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 09:23 AM   #5114
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I think 959 will be the state number. I think I-422 as the interstate designation was written into law.

As as somebody who travels to Nashville and Huntsville fairly often, I welcome the opportunity to bypass the Birmingham metro area to the north (when the road finally opens in the 22nd century ).
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Old January 9th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #5115
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I-22 is almost complete in Alabama. All that remains is the interchange with I-65 which is projected to be the most expensive in ALDOT history. Target completion date is 2012-2013.
The highway that'll soon be known as I-22 has been under construction for frickin' ever. The first segment, the US 78 bypass of New Albany, MS, was designed in the pre-Interstate era. The last time I drove up that way was in 1994, IIRC, and the last stretches in Mississippi were approaching completion at that time. Except not really the last-- there's still no tie-in to the rest of the Interstate system at Memphis, which I surmise will be via the I-469 beltway corridor. Plus, the Mississippi parts were built without paved shoulders and with substandard signage-- has that been corrected yet? Yes, it has-- Google Streetview FTW!

In 1994, the only completed segment in Alabama was the first few miles from the Mississippi border. Interestingly, that segment appeared to have been built right on the footprint of the existing two-lane US 78. The bridges carrying local roads over US 78/I-22 have steel plate girder spans over the roadways but precast concrete beams from the outer bents to the abutments-- and the concrete beams are deeper in profile despite being much shorter, which makes the proportions look

As far as I-959/I-422 or whatever, in addition to being against it, I'm skeptical that it'll ever be built. Alabama has a long history of saying that they'll build various enormous highway projects that never materialize. While Georgia's Northern Arc project was still alive in the early 00's, Alabama was saying that they intended to build their segment of an I-22 route along US 72 from Mississippi to Scottsboro, then directly toward Rome, GA via AB 35 and GA 20 to tie into the Northern Arc at I-75 near Cartersville, despite the fact that a perfectly adequate 2x2 highway west of Huntsville had been completed in the '80's, and despite Mississippi's decision to widen US 72 instead of building a freeway in that corridor. There was also talk of building tollways in both the US 78 and US 80 corridors, but those, too, never materialized, and the US 80 corridor still isn't fully 2x2.

That said, IMO Alabama has a pretty good highway network, with the Interstates well supplemented by an extensive system of 2x2 highways. I have a mental Alabama highways wish list (as if anyone cares), but it's pretty short.

Last edited by Tom 958; January 9th, 2010 at 03:35 PM. Reason: typos
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Old January 9th, 2010, 02:38 PM   #5116
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Are there still plans to extend I-85 from Montgomery to I-20 near Cuba, AL?
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Old January 9th, 2010, 04:05 PM   #5117
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Are there still plans to extend I-85 from Montgomery to I-20 near Cuba, AL?
I don't think there ever were any, hence the old toll road proposal. Most of the corridor has been upgraded to 2x2, so a new freeway is really unnececessary.

Now, re North Carolina:

To me, North Carolina has the most interesting highway system of any state. If you've been following it for decades as I have, without making any efforts to spoil the surprises by reading NCDOT planning documents, it seems that anything can happen. Often there have been "why don't they biuld a connector here?" segments that eventually get built per my expectations. Then there are other roads that seem totally off the wall to me. It's really fun to watch the system evolve.

Since this is the Interstates thread, I'll try to get back on topic by saying that, to me, I-85 in North Carolina is the most interesting Interstate corridor that I know of, especially between Kings Mountain and Greensboro. Quite a bit of US 29 was widened to 2x2 early on, probably starting in the '40's, then replaced by I-85 early in the Interstate era. This is especially striking from China Grove to the Yadkin River, where the widened US 29 was apparently replaced by a freeway designed to pre-Interstate standards little more than ten years after US 29 was widened, while from Charlotte to China Grove I-85 wasn't built until the late 60's.

North of the Yadkin River, old US 29 was replaced by an expressway-like 2x2 highway with a few interchanges. Except-- I think that it was upgraded to full freeway between the Yadkin River to the US 52 cutoff early in the Interstate era, because there are continuous frontage roads very close to the mainline, which is rare in NC. North of there, new I-85 wasn't completed until the mid '80's, which... I and my family came close to being killed, being number four in a seven car chain reaction pileup as some idiot blocked the left lane of what is now Green 85 as he waited for a break in traffic to turn into his driveway. At that time, the grading and bridges for new I-85 were complete, but grass was growing where the pavement should've been.

I think that NC intends to widen the remaining 2x2 sections of I-85 to 2x4-- it's already been done from China Grove to a couple of miles short of the Yadkin River. But-- now they're out of money! There's even been talk of building a tolled replacement for the Yadkin River bridge, though even with funding, figuring out how to do it will be a challenge since the bridge is located in a Revolutionary War-Civil War battlefield.

Gee, I could talk about this all day.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #5118
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Most of the corridor has been upgraded to 2x2, so a new freeway is really unnececessary.
That's crazy talk. Freeways are never unnececessary!!
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Old January 9th, 2010, 04:11 PM   #5119
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The necessity of a freeway can differ from place to place. For instance, if construction costs are very low, lower traffic volumes can make a freeway profitable, and traffic safety and regional development can also make a freeway profitable with low traffic volumes.

I don't think there are many completely unnecessary freeways in the United States, although I-180 in Illinois may be pushing it
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Old January 9th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #5120
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I think that I-95 at the US/CA border in Maine is pushing it a little more: 1.88k AADT (970 north) (910 south)
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